Rule #23: Never put infinite space inside infinite space.

[Dragero]

...It makes a boom.

I was playing the partys wizard(Idiot wizard it seems...). We just got a TON of loot (Big bad guys` stronghold raid ftw) and where around lev 8-11.

We Where having trouble carrying our stuff, near full encumbermence. Our Bag of holding was full, as was our Portable hole. I, wanting to reduce the load even more, Tell the DM I`m gonna put the PH in the BoH.

He looks concerned. He opens up one of his books, chokes on his tea, and asks me if I`m sure I want too. (OHH I should have known) I say yes, and after some calculations/ rolling he says

"OK, as you put the bag in the hole, a rift in the fabric of reality opens. It sucks up your bag, hole, and all the things nearby. You feel like your flying. As you look down, your already inside the rift, dead"

At least it was an epic way to die. Apparently we took out a whole forest :D

This was 3.5 btw....

[Lysander]

Actually BOH in a PH should have just destroyed both items and their contents. You have to combine them the other way, PH in a BOH to open a rift that sucks things in. And that wouldn't prove fatal, you'd just be stranded in the astral plane. It's a timeless plane so you could float there immortally forever, never needing to eat or sleep, stranded unless you can plane shift away or something finds you.

[Starbuck_II]

Not sure why you died, but yes that is one epic way to go. Would have been better had you been fighting some enemies when you tried it.

[taltamir]

you really should have gotten a knowledge arcanna check to know that PH and BoO cause a big boom when mixed... :)

[jmbrown]

*Sigh* I miss the golden days when none of us knew the intricacies of the game and the DMG was explicitely forbidden from player's eyes (my first DM even had a piece of tape saying "NO PLAYER'S ALLOWED").

Now it's normal for the player to crack open the DMG and make a laundry list of items he wants. At least 4E did what 3E should have done and stick the magic items in the PHB.

[Dragero]

Yeah our DM sorta hates us......always de-railing his campaign. He also seemed to want to just get a new party going so he was looking for a way to muder us. (we had about 97 magic items in our holes/bags, because we killed a god or two.....don`t ask how.)

And I think it was actualy a PH in a BoH....

[Dragero]

you really should have gotten a knowledge arcanna check to know that PH and BoO cause a big boom when mixed... :)

Yeah my Wizard doesn`t get knoledge checks.....He has a "Ring of Drunkeness" That makes him drunk 24/7 (A curse from one of the gods we killed.....)

[Zincorium]

This has always struck me as, if not the most annoying rule, at least the most pointless rule they carried over from previous editions.

It:
A. Has no actual explanation. There is nothing inherently unstable about extraplanar space in any other instance where it appears, and the BoH and PH exception to this is not justified.

B. Screws over the players for doing something completely innocuous. Did they put the two together? Lost all their stuff. Instantly, no save, no corrective action available. It's like an ethereal rust monster with ghost touch antenna.

C. Doesn't need to happen. You put one in the other? Great. You have to go into one to get into the other. All normal rules apply for each.

[taltamir]

when i said a knowledge check I meant a knowledge DC5 or 10 at most. allow untrained... the fighter could have heard about it, the bard should have heard about it, etc.

that is only if you didn't buy it from someone, if you bought it he should have warned you (aka, "you recall that the merchant who sold it to you said never to put one inside the other or it goes boom")

that is only if you are sticklers for RAW, your DM really should have just house ruled that it does "nothing". as in, the bag will not go into the portable hole, nothing happens. This also prevents using them offensively... now that you know that it destroys and everything in a 100 foot blast with no save you can use it to kill gods safely (mind control someone to do it next to them)

[Lysander]

This has always struck me as, if not the most annoying rule, at least the most pointless rule they carried over from previous editions.

It:
A. Has no actual explanation. There is nothing inherently unstable about extraplanar space in any other instance where it appears, and the BoH and PH exception to this is not justified.

B. Screws over the players for doing something completely innocuous. Did they put the two together? Lost all their stuff. Instantly, no save, no corrective action available. It's like an ethereal rust monster with ghost touch antenna.

C. Doesn't need to happen. You put one in the other? Great. You have to go into one to get into the other. All normal rules apply for each.

It doesn't really seem like that big an imposition though. Don't put one magic bag in the other magic bag. Okay.

[Zincorium]

It doesn't really seem like that big an imposition though. Don't put one magic bag in the other magic bag. Okay.

Yeah, but if there's no reason to make the imposition at all, and no one has given me one, then no imposition is warranted.

[Lysander]

Yeah, but if there's no reason to make the imposition at all, and no one has given me one, then no imposition is warranted.

I guess it's to prevent people from screwing over encumbrance rules by having extradimensional space nested within extradimensional space to infinity.

Although I don't know if anything happens if you put a bag of holding inside another bag of holding, or a portable hole within another portable hole.

[kamikasei]

I guess it's to prevent people from screwing over encumbrance rules by having extradimensional space nested within extradimensional space to infinity.

If I have the wealth to burn on an arbitrary number of bags of holding, I don't want to be bothered about encumberance. What does it add?

Although I don't know if anything happens if you put a bag of holding inside another bag of holding, or a portable hole within another portable hole.

Nothing does.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Although I don't know if anything happens if you put a bag of holding inside another bag of holding, or a portable hole within another portable hole.

Let's go in my A hole and find out.

[dsmiles]

I thought we just discussed not doing this in another thread. Somebody didn't do their homework!

[lord_khaine]

Let's go in my A hole and find out.

I think its nececary to vigorously probe your A-hole first, to determine if its safe for the general population.

[BobVosh]

I claim Pharaoh's A-hole for SCIENCE!

[Slayn82]

Thats a rule from the time when you didnt order those things in "Ye Olde Wizarde Shoppe". And up to 2nd Edition, looting things was the biggest improvement a player could get to his character.

So, encumbrance rules were often enforced, to the point that 11 level wizards loved the convenience of summoning a few donkeys to carry the treasure. Portable holes could not enter portable holes, and Bags of Holding could not enter Bags of Holding.

A wizard usually treated his most powerfull magic like someone would treat a piece of plutonium. Powerfull, usefull, but it took just a little error in handling to screw you. Teleportation? Well, only after giving a coke or other bribe to the DM, because that spell could simply kill you in horrible ways. Entombed on earth, falling from the sky or maybe losing a limb - thats so fun. (Actually, on a strange and different way, yes, it was. The dangers meant that when you actually suceeded, it was awesome.)

[pasko77]

when i said a knowledge check I meant a knowledge DC5 or 10 at most. allow untrained... the fighter could have heard about it, the bard should have heard about it, etc.

lol, not really.
I dont think your average peasant could answer these questions.
Lets say DC 20, more than acceptable, if a little easy.
As for the bard having heard, yes, they have a whole ability to simulate this, then such a low DC is not necessary.

[jmbrown]

This has always struck me as, if not the most annoying rule, at least the most pointless rule they carried over from previous editions.

It:
A. Has no actual explanation. There is nothing inherently unstable about extraplanar space in any other instance where it appears, and the BoH and PH exception to this is not justified.

Bag of holding and portable hole aren't extradimensional, they're nondimensional. They're demipanes that exist outside the normal planar structure. You can't planeshift into a bag of holding nor can spells that work across dimensions (like transdimensional spell metamagic) affect items inside. Placing a bag of holding and portable hole together is the equivalent of the universe dividing by zero.

B. Screws over the players for doing something completely innocuous. Did they put the two together? Lost all their stuff. Instantly, no save, no corrective action available. It's like an ethereal rust monster with ghost touch antenna.

Pretty much every player knows the rammifications. It's not like the DMG is off limits considering you're practically required to root through it if you make a higher level character unless the DM assigns you goods yourselves.

And if it does happen, oh well. Live and learn. It's not the end of the world. Now you have a cool story to tell at bars if you lived. Maybe the DM will take pity on you and give you an easy adventure to put you back up to your WBL.

C. Doesn't need to happen. You put one in the other? Great. You have to go into one to get into the other. All normal rules apply for each.

Boring. I like the idea that they're volatile in reaction to each other.

Alternatively, portable hole + bag of holding makes a great weapon. Sure, it's a 22K gold weapon, but just send a charmed mook up to the big bad and say "place object A in object B." If you have planeshift you can do it yourself. Leave the villain to fend for himself against astral dreadnoughts and other planar horrors.

[Dragero]

I thought we just discussed not doing this in another thread. Somebody didn't do their homework!

Sorry :(

I never thought of that bomb Idea :D

WE CAN DEFEAT THE SKELETON NUKES!!!!!

[Zen Master]

Pretty much every player knows the rammifications.

But not every player. The OP and his party were clearly left out of the loop. Personally, I wish the game still held that type of surprises for me :)

Boring. I like the idea that they're volatile in reaction to each other.

Yea - what the game needs is more crazy and unpredictable magic effects, not less.

[GallóglachMaxim]

Let's go in my A hole and find out.

Is it one of these?

[kamikasei]

It's not like the DMG is off limits considering you're practically required to root through it if you make a higher level character unless the DM assigns you goods yourselves.

I'm not sure what your point is. The way you talk about player access to the DMG makes it sound like you think having the magic items in there, and giving players license to look at magic item descriptions in order to decide how to equip their characters, is bad because then they can see other rules that should be DM-only knowledge by looking at the rest of the book.

But the bag/hole interaction is described in the entries for each magical item, not some separate section in the DMG. So unless the players are never told anything about their items, say via a skill check, but have to find out their uses via trial and error, it's a piece of information as legitimate for a player and character to be told as the capacity of the bag or the dangers of piercing it.

Boring. I like the idea that they're volatile in reaction to each other.

I really don't think "boring" is a fair description of "two magic items don't happen to catastrophically explode when put together, because why on earth would they?". Is it "boring" that wearing a hat of disguise and gloves of dexterity together doesn't instantly kill the wearer, no save, and bind their soul forever in torment? (Or that DMs argue it's mollycoddling to tell the players this when they get the items, or remind them of it when they suggest wearing both items together...)

[jmbrown]

I'm not sure what your point is. The way you talk about player access to the DMG makes it sound like you think having the magic items in there, and giving players license to look at magic item descriptions in order to decide how to equip their characters, is bad because then they can see other rules that should be DM-only knowledge by looking at the rest of the book.

That's exactly what my point is but my opinions on magic items come from another time.

But the bag/hole interaction is described in the entries for each magical item, not some separate section in the DMG. So unless the players are never told anything about their items, say via a skill check, but have to find out their uses via trial and error, it's a piece of information as legitimate for a player and character to be told as the capacity of the bag or the dangers of piercing it.

Yes, they're described in each entry meaning most real life players know exactly how they operate. Combining the two items shouldn't even be an issue because you know what will happen. If you combine them then it's your error just like casting fireball too close to your allies. The players shouldn't be immune to their screw ups even if it means crippling them.

Everyone knows fire is hot so don't complain if you stick your hand in the fire.

I really don't think "boring" is a fair description of "two magic items don't happen to catastrophically explode when put together, because why on earth would they?". Is it "boring" that wearing a hat of disguise and gloves of dexterity together doesn't instantly kill the wearer, no save, and bind their soul forever in torment? (Or that DMs argue it's mollycoddling to tell the players this when they get the items, or remind them of it when they suggest wearing both items together...)

Catastrophic is a pretty big overstatement, don't you think? We're not talking about smashing a staff of power here. Both combinations require something going to the astral plane. Shoot, recovering your lost items might be an adventure in itself. There's plenty of divination magic that would make it easy on you.

[kamikasei]

That's exactly what my point is but my opinions on magic items come from another time...

Yes, they're described in each entry meaning most real life players know exactly how they operate.

But looking at this in the light of your first comment in the thread (where your objection seems to be to the players seeing inside the DMG, not to knowing how their magic items work), I don't really see the relevance of bringing up access to the DMG at all - it's a completely unrelated issue. (If your objection is "players should not have access to the descriptions of their magic items" then why does it matter if they're in the DMG or somewhere else?)

The players shouldn't be immune to their screw ups even if it means crippling them.

Everyone knows fire is hot so don't complain if you stick your hand in the fire.

Well, obviously not everyone does know about this interaction and I think it was poor form for the DM in this situation never to warn the players of it. But that aside... I think it comes down to DM style; I'm very much in favour of DMs asking "are you sure?" when it's clear the player is proposing an action having forgotten something important and relevant that there's a very good chance the character would be more aware of.

Catastrophic is a pretty big overstatement, don't you think?

Not really. Unfortunately, in 3.5, gear is important. If you lose all your stuff at high levels, it hurts a lot. Losing it all puts a serious dent in a character's power. As to later recovery, it depends on whether the "sucked into the void and forever lost" and "destroyed in the process" lines are meant to suggest (as it would seem to me) that the contents of both items are similarly forever lost or destroyed.

("Lost forever", geez - more legacy rules that make no sense...)

[jmbrown]

My first post was simply the result of me remembering my first game when none of us knew what magic items did except through trial and error. The fact of 3.5 is that players are expected to know how the items they're purchasing work.

This is one of those exceptions and the DM didn't handle the situation by RAW, but I would just throw out a random number like 99% of players know what their items do and I probably wouldn't be too far off. If you don't want something bad happening, don't do it. The only time I could see it becoming an option is in an emergency situation where escape through a black hole is necessary. In that case you have to either rethink your escape options or turn the bag upside down and leave it behind. Most people only carry a type 1 or 2 so it's not a major loss in investment.

[kamikasei]

I agree that if the players know that the rule is in force and they combine the items, not simply having forgotten about the effect, that they're bringing the result on themselves. I think they should be reminded about the effect just in case, though.

I don't think the rule should exist in the first place, though. It doesn't become less pointless and weird simply for being known.

[Jolly Steve]

The infinite set of numbers has many infinite sets inside it. For example the set of whole numbers (which in turn contains the infinite set of odd numbers, and so on).

[Narazil]

you really should have gotten a knowledge arcanna check to know that PH and BoO cause a big boom when mixed... :)

How would he know? Since when were level 9-11 parties experts on interplanar travel and rifts?
It's not like a lot people experience this, and live to tell the tale to others.