"The Rogue cries": myth or what?

[nefele]

Inspired by a thread which assumes that, in real games, DMs need to nerf the wizards so as not to ruin the game/spoil everyone's fun etc.

"The Rogue cries" is a favourite expression of CharOp Boards. Sometimes it's the Fighter who cries, sometimes anyone except Tier 1 classes. And all those hapless people cry and bawl, because that awful man, the Wizard, ended the entire encounter with a single spell, or cast a utility spell which rendered useless the whole purpose of their chosen class. So they cry. According to the boards, when the Wizard casts Knock, the Rogue cries.

And I ask all you people, in good faith:
Does this actually happen in your games? Ever?
(Not the Rogue actually crying, of course , but the Rogue's player feeling unhappy - and not because the Rogue can't do something, but because the Wizard can also do it.) - EDITED FOR CLARITY

According to my personal experience, it most certainly doesn't happen. Here's what happens in games I play:

• The Wizard casts Knock and the Rogue doesn't cry. The Rogue says "yay! the door's open! good work, mate!" and goes about his business searching for valuables or sneaking in another aisle.
• The Wizard consistently casts Knock whenever it's needed and the Rogue doesn't cry. The Rogue says "yay! now I'll have more skill points to spend on Sleight of Hand and Spot and a million other skills!"
• The Wizard casts a successful Save-Or-Die and the Fighter doesn't cry. The Fighter says "yay! these baddies are down, two left! thanks, pal!" and goes about his business attacking the survivors.
• The Wizard ends the encounter with a Save-Or-Die and the Fighter doesn't cry. The Fighter says "woo! we won! way to go!", just like the rest of the team.

In short, doesn't it make sense to be happy when you have someone very very effective on your team? Or am I living in an alternate universe?

"Oh, but the Rogue becomes useless!" say the Boards. No. No, he doesn't (in my experience, always). The Rogue has a million things to do, in and out of combat, solo or with company, with tons of magic items or completely naked, and he gets to do something the Wizard almost never does: he gets to be a daredevil.

To put it bluntly, the Rogue's player gets to roleplay a character he finds cool, and no Knock-casting Wizard who ends encounters with a spell and rewrites history with a nod can ever change that. Similarly, the Fighter's player gets to roleplay a character he finds cool, etc. Who gives a dingo's kidney what the Wizard does in the meantime? (He obviously gets to roleplay a character he finds cool, too, well good for him!)

But maybe my groups are unusual, so I'm gathering opinions. The consensus in the boards seems to be that, when Wizards do all that powerful stuff, the other players feel worthless and go green with envy. Is that really always the case? Does it depend on the group or perhaps the game? Or is it a myth altogether? What happens in your games?

[Foryn Gilnith]

The consensus in the boards seems to be that,

I suspect a psychological bias here. I can think of rather few things that "the board" actually has a consensus on.

On-topic, people will whine about anything. It's more about the way something is done than what is actually done. Doing SoD spam with grace is better than straight blasting like an arrogant git.

PS: Rogues are good for a lot more than lockpicking, as you observed. It's gotten to the point where I rarely put Open Lock points on my rogue.

[jokey665]

I've never had a player play a rogue and be overly effective in combat. Fighters et al seem to do much better. /shrug

[Swordgleam]

I think any problem of that kind is less about power and more about niche protection. If you're amazingly good at something no one else can do, everyone will be happy. If you're amazingly good at something that's another character's key strength, that player is unhappy.

Most people figure this out, and don't play a wizard (or any other class) who overshadows another PC in their key ability. So it doesn't matter how overpowered the wizard is, since he's not stepping on someone else's toes.

[taltamir]

Inspired by a thread which assumes that, in real games, DMs need to nerf the wizards so as not to ruin the game/spoil everyone's fun etc.

Yay, I inspire people :)

I should note that the point above is not my point or the intent of that thread. DMs only need to ban a few crazy things (pun pun, chain gate, etc). but they often end up banning so so so much more.
My complaint was that overzealous DMs ban way too much because it is somehow "wrong" for the wizard to actually ever be good at something. because if he is, then the rogue cries.

To be fair, I agree with you op, I don't think a rogue should be crying... so a wizard used a spell per day to instantly open that one lock... good thing you are opening locks all day, but that one had to be opened now (in 6 seconds), not in a few minutes.
same for all the rest.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, when I play rogues I do feel unhapy, not because of the party wizard, but because my DM loves to throw us Undead and/or constructs.

[taltamir]

Well, when I play rogues I do feel unhapy, not because of the party wizard, but because my DM loves to throw us Undead and/or constructs.

that i agree with... the rogue cries because in combat he sacrifices a whole lot of sneak attack, and as you progress in level, EVERYTHING becomes immune to it...

I would say that everything that has "sneak attack immunity" should instead be "take half damage from sneak attack dice". then rogues will no longer cry.

[Kaldrin]

If I'm playing a wizard and there's a rogue in the group I've got far better things to memorize than Knock. Let him do the work. At that player's request I might do it, but they owe me a lot of gold as payment.

[Runestar]

The Wizard casts a successful Save-Or-Die and the Fighter doesn't cry. The Fighter says "yay! these baddies are down, two left! thanks, pal!" and goes about his business attacking the survivors.

From experience, SoDs really shine only when the party faces multiple foes of roughly equal power each. So yes, in such an encounter, the wizard would be able to make effective use of SoDs without making the fighters feel useless.

If they were faced with a solo foe, then SoDs suck, since the wizard either kills it outright, leaving nothing for the fighter, or the monster makes its save and the wizard has just wasted a slot. People play a fighter exactly because they want to be able to hit things, not twiddle their thumbs and watch as the wizard takes them down from 100ft away.

[RebelRogue]

My first 3.5 char was a rogue (my username is named after him) and I cried way more in the Construct and Undead arcs of the campaign respectively...! Then again, I don't think these things happened too often. Neither the general "locked door" scenario or the easy "knock solution".

[unre9istered]

Wait, a wizard with a rogue in his party bothers to memorize knock? Can't he find something better to put in that slot?

[nefele]

Damn, I thought it was... poetic to use the crying Rogue as an example, but it seems that my point got lost. The point isn't how good the Rogue class is. (Or the Fighter...)

Allow me rephrase the question:

In your games, when one player plays effectively a powerful wizard, do the other players feel disappointed and worthless and envious?

Not hypothetically, but in reality from your own experience. In games you have played, with real people - your friends - around the table. Do you or your friends whine about it? Or are you all having a good time regardless?

[taltamir]

If I'm playing a wizard and there's a rogue in the group I've got far better things to memorize than Knock. Let him do the work. At that player's request I might do it, but they owe me a lot of gold as payment.

you don't want to memorize knock anyways, you want it on a scroll... for emergencies... if your rogue is bound and gagged and you release him by burning your knock scroll (which cost money btw) then he will be grateful,

Damn, I thought it was... poetic to use the crying Rogue as an example, but it seems that my point got lost. The point isn't how good the Rogue class is. (Or the Fighter...)

it was poetic, you were just correct in your assertion that the rogue doesn't cry, neither does the fighter, (at least they shouldn't)... and that the whole thing is a load of hype.

[Deth Muncher]

Damn, I thought it was... poetic to use the crying Rogue as an example, but it seems that my point got lost. The point isn't how good the Rogue class is. (Or the Fighter...)

Allow me rephrase the question:

In your games, when one player plays effectively a powerful wizard, do the other players feel disappointed and worthless and envious?

Not hypothetically, but in reality from your own experience. In games you have played, with real people - your friends - around the table. Do you or your friends whine about it? Or are you all having a good time regardless?

I think it more has to do with who the party leader is.

For example, if the party leader is Bob the Fighter, and all the group is in accordance with it, it's generally because he's the most tactical minded/can do supah-damage/both. So what does the party do? The help him out. Rogue moves to flank, Cleric buffs, Paladin tanks and Wizard debuffs so that Bob can DPS (or, deal damage for you non WoW-ers) without getting hurt.

Likewise, if Jim the Wizard is the party leader, the roles might shift a little. Pally still tanks and Cleric still buffs and rogue still flanks, but now Fighter helps tank and makes sure nothing hits the caster as he throws around the SoDs.

[Dimers]

I think it more has to do with who the party leader is.

Good insight, Deth Muncher.

@OP: I've certainly seen characters cry (metaphorically) when it becomes clear they've invested in something worthless. But it's been surpassingly rare that another PC causes the worthlessness, in games I've played -- usually it's a GM's ruling on questionable wording, or poor choice of feats, or stopping the campaign before the character reaches the level where they'd really shine, or an errata nerf, or the right circumstances rarely coming into play in a specific adventure (e.g. rogue versus undead).

[Foryn Gilnith]

If I'm playing a wizard and there's a rogue in the group I've got far better things to memorize than Knock. Let him do the work. At that player's request I might do it, but they owe me a lot of gold as payment.

If I'm playing a rogue and there's a wizard in the group I've got far better things to put skill points into than Open Lock. Let him do the work.

If he's disagreeable, diplomance or bluff him.

[Aldizog]

[SIZE="2"]But maybe my groups are unusual, so I'm gathering opinions. The consensus in the boards seems to be that, when Wizards do all that powerful stuff, the other players feel worthless and go green with envy. Is that really always the case? Does it depend on the group or perhaps the game? Or is it a myth altogether? What happens in your games?

I think you are largely right, partly because players like having the assistance of an effective caster, and partly because casters aren't actively trying to overshadow everybody else.

In my games, casters have been considerate to the other PCs. Playing a druid, I'd use Summons to give the rogue flanking buddies. The rogue was a monster when he got a full attack, did far more damage than anybody else against single targets. (Can a Core druid do 250+ per round against a single target? I certainly never did, though I was trying to avoid cheese.) I'd use Air Walk on the bard-barian, so he could use Leap Attack. I'd use Quickened Cure Light to stabilize any downed party members, and Greater Dispel against various enemy caster tricks.

Sometimes I've seen casters be too considerate; in the game I ran, the arcane trickster spent the first 3 rounds of every fight buffing the party and the barbarian. Haste, Enlarge, Bull's Strength; I gave the barbarian a Belt of Giant Strength just so the trickster could have more fun doing other things. That group of players probably left convinced that casters were generally weak.

[taltamir]

If I'm playing a rogue and there's a wizard in the group I've got far better things to put skill points into than Open Lock. Let him do the work.

now that i think about it... isn't there a crowbar item? and can't the fighter just smash any lock you can't pass? if it is a suitably strong door then chaching, the wizard uses shrink item and you take it back to town to sell. (copper doors, steel doors, adamantium doors, etc... all worth quite a lot... adamantium door is 200k i think)

so really, the wizard shouldn't use knock except for an usual emergency and the rogue shouldn't bother with open lock...

of course, in a CRPG you run across thousands of "crates" and "chests" and "barrels" who are often locked with random loot.

[Snails]

I think any problem of that kind is less about power and more about niche protection. If you're amazingly good at something no one else can do, everyone will be happy. If you're amazingly good at something that's another character's key strength, that player is unhappy.

Most people figure this out, and don't play a wizard (or any other class) who overshadows another PC in their key ability. So it doesn't matter how overpowered the wizard is, since he's not stepping on someone else's toes.

Let's ask one of my characters, cowardly Mr. Smartpants. What do you say Mr. Smartpants (named changed to protect the guilty).

<Mr. Smartypants speakng>

If there is an obvious Save vs. Utter Defeat spell, yeah, I will throw that down. But usually there is not, at least not early in the combat.

Even if there is, if this spell fails, I will attraction attention. Eek!

So then my tactician mind starts working on how to conserve my resources while minimizing risk to my own precious skin. Well, gee, the surest way to keep myself safe is to put someone else in the spotlight as the most obvious threat. Why not distract the enemy with all the meatshields? That will keep myself and dear friend Mr. Healing out of harm's way.

So right on round 1, I put my diabolical plan into action: I cast Haste on all my team members.

So now those silly meatshields are running around the battlefield spilling blood everywhere. It is almost as if those fools want to be targetted by the enemy!

I drop a Fireball or two, and shout insincere encouragement. Really I am not doing much more damage than the Fighter, if you tally it up. Don't want to grab too much attention! And I am holding back on some of my best spells, to protect myself if things go badly. Maybe I throw down a Glitterdust and make some enemies helpless like kittens in front of the Rogue.

Three rounds down, and there is often just clean up work left. If not, I have a good idea where to put down the real hurt, near the end of combat, when few enemies will be left to target me.

All this time, the enemy has been throwing down hell on the Fighter and Rogue. Not a scratch on me. Mr. Healing, fix them up for more.

The funny thing is: those two are smiling! Suckers.

I have my evil more evil plan for the next combat: if I have the chance, cast Bull's Strength on them before combat. That will make them even bigger distractions.

As my favorite prof in wizard school once said: A happy meatshield is a BRAVE meatshield.

Hee hee hee...

Thank you, Mr. Smartpants.

The point is that IME the most reliable and resource efficient means that a wizard can protect his own skin is by helping his friends win the combat.

So maybe the wizard IS too powerful? If he is spending most resources making his buddies more powerful, that is the exact OPPOSITE of a balance problem.

[Mike_G]

that i agree with... the rogue cries because in combat he sacrifices a whole lot of sneak attack, and as you progress in level, EVERYTHING becomes immune to it...

I would say that everything that has "sneak attack immunity" should instead be "take half damage from sneak attack dice". then rogues will no longer cry.

We instituted that as a house rule, for things with a structure, at least. Corporeal undead and constructs may not care if you stab them in the kidney, but they have joints, sensory apparatus, etc that will inconvenience them more if targeted.

If you could Sneak Attack a machine, you could pick a part to hit that would be more likely to disable the thing, or you could cut the spinal column of a skeleton rather than crack a few ribs.

Oozes, ghosts, etc, sure, immune, but anything with a form and structure should be somewhat vulnerable to Sneak Attack.

[taltamir]

Oozes, ghosts, etc, sure, immune, but anything with a form and structure should be somewhat vulnerable to Sneak Attack.

oozes i agree with (although you could say they have some sort of tiny floating "stuff" in them)

ghosts though? you strike them in the "core of their evil soul" or "their still beating spectral heart"... there is plenty of fantasy reasoning for this... sure they are incorporeal but they are still human shaped and striking a vital organ can be "symbolic"... hence, half sneak attack damage.

[Aldizog]

We instituted that as a house rule, for things with a structure, at least. Corporeal undead and constructs may not care if you stab them in the kidney, but they have joints, sensory apparatus, etc that will inconvenience them more if targeted.

If you could Sneak Attack a machine, you could pick a part to hit that would be more likely to disable the thing, or you could cut the spinal column of a skeleton rather than crack a few ribs.

Oozes, ghosts, etc, sure, immune, but anything with a form and structure should be somewhat vulnerable to Sneak Attack.

True. Everybody knows that zombies have a vital area (the brain). It's in all most of the movies.

[2xMachina]

Always buy the MIC's construct/undead greater crystal. Plug into a +3 to sneak attack them.

Ghosts... if you can touch them, they ought to have vitals too. They are kind of normal, except just ethereal right? So, if you go on the ethereal plane, they're pretty much normal.

[Crow]

Bear in mind OP, that there have a been a recent rash of unhelpful new threads on this board touting the broken awesomeness of wizards, that have no basis in actual game experiences.

Most people don't ever experience the types of situations that people bring up constantly in these threads.

[Doc Roc]

Hmm. Well..... Hmmm. This is an interesting thing.

I agree with you, at least in spirit. Particularly since Rogue has UMD.

[Lappy9000]

Who gives a dingo's kidney what the Wizard does in the meantime?

I like you

In my experience, the rogue sneak attacks while two-weapon fighting on the BBEG and makes the DM cry. And then rocks fall (or a horde of Aberration/Construct/Elemental/Plant/Undead led by enemies with Fortification armor)

[nefele]

Bear in mind OP, that there have a been a recent rash of unhelpful new threads on this board touting the broken awesomeness of wizards, that have no basis in actual game experiences.

This is my impression too, but I don't believe it's a "recent rash". I believe it's a trend that goes years back, when people first started quoting CharOp conclusions and assuming they apply to real games too.

• Yes, optimisation-wise, the rogue can't hold a candle to the wizard and neither can most classes.
• And no, when you actually play D&D, this fact doesn't spoil anyone's fun.

If the thread doesn't get buried and I get enough answers by tomorrow (so far no one has mentioned real players being annoyed or real games being ruined...), I'll proudly announce:
MYTH: BUSTED


...Which would force us to admit that all the attempts to rebalance the base classes on the basis of "lack of balance ruins the game and spoils the fun" are, in fact, solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.

[Sinfire Titan]

In your games, when one player plays effectively a powerful wizard, do the other players feel disappointed and worthless and envious?

Not hypothetically, but in reality from your own experience. In games you have played, with real people - your friends - around the table. Do you or your friends whine about it?

Only Midge, so no one cares.

[GAThraawn]

Wait, a wizard with a rogue in his party bothers to memorize knock? Can't he find something better to put in that slot?

If I'm playing a rogue and there's a wizard in the group I've got far better things to put skill points into than Open Lock. Let him do the work.

I sense a potential problem here...

[Sinfire Titan]

I sense a potential problem here...

The answer is a wand.