Character Advice?

[Lycan 01]

So I sorta started a 4e DnD outbreak at my college. What started as a suggestion with a few new friends ended up with me having 10 or so people asking to play. So, I'm currently DMing two groups of 5 and 4, respectively, with new players asking to join every now and then. Plus a Dark Heresy group I'm currently forming, with 4 players from those two groups...

So I decided to impart my DM knowledge to anyone who wanted to try it out. Two players, one from each group, expressed interest. So this coming week I'm going to train them in the ways of the DM. Teaching them how to explain things and paint a good picture of what's happening, lending them the rulebooks so they can get familiar with all the rules, advising them on how to deal with problem players and people who think outside the box, and running a few 1-on-1 practice scenarios, like "Ork with a pie" and stuff like that.

So hopefully, I'll have a replacement DM in both parties, and I'll get a few chances to play every now and then. Which makes me happy, because I've only gotten to actually be a player one or twice in my entire DnD career.

So now I'm working on my two characters. The first group is almost lvl 3, and they're in a serious campaign with lots of grim content. So I want sort of a darker character for that. The second group is lvl 1, and more of a fun and casual setting. So, I want kind of a silly character for that. Here's what I've got so far...

Group 1:
I'm thinking of basing a character off of Rorschach from Watchmen. Y'know, a dark and brooding vigilante who thinks evil has to be punished through any means neccissary... But I've also got a warped sense of humor. So I've come up with this: A Chaotic Neutral Halfling Rogue who's geared more for melee combat and serves as the party skillmonkey. I don't have the PHB with me, so I haven't actually statted him out yet. I'd play him as untrusting, jaded, mischevious, brutal, and willing to do whatever it takes to punish whoever he deems wicked. (Sort of a mix between Belkar and Miko, I suppose. )

What do you guys think? Does that sound good, or do you have better suggestions for a Rorschach-esque character I could play? Any advise for building him?

Group 2:
I've already got this one figured out. A Chaotic Good Half-Orc Bard. I'm not sure how to stat him out, though... I want him to a bit slow and dense, but shockingly charismatic and diplomatic. Like... a mix of Thog and Elan. I'm not sure how to build him to be effective, though... I'm thinking high charisma, for sure. But which is more important for Bards, Wisdom or Intelligence?

Also, which do Elan and Thog have lowest for them - Wisdom or Intelligence?

Also, one fun fact about my unnamed Half-Orc Bard is that he plays the violin. But when he grew up in his tribe, he was always made fun of for playing such a "wimpy" instrument. So he's really private and secretive about it, and he keeps it in a box strapped to his back - along with a battle axe, so he can at least look tough and keep people from making fun of him. Then, once combat starts, he nervously pulls out the violin and begins to play music - sweet, beautiful music. And if anybody makes fun of him, he'll smack 'em with the flat side of the axe.

So yeah, group 2's character is a simple-minded, self-conscious CG Half-Orc Bard. Any advice, comments, or nit-picks?

[Longcat]

Also, which do Elan and Thog have lowest for them - Wisdom or Intelligence?

Elan lacks common sense, but isn't necessarily dumb. Hence, Wisdom is lowest.

Thog seems to be rather stupid deficient in the intellectual department, since he can't even form grammatically correct sentences. Therefore, I would go for intelligence.

[Pigkappa]

Elan lacks common sense, but isn't necessarily dumb. Hence, Wisdom is lowest.

Panel 4: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html

I'm playing a character inspired by Elan and took Int 8 and Wis 10. I should maybe have chosen Int 8 and Wis 8 after all; I don't think he really lacks common sense, but a few times he acts like a total moron (Origin of PCs, in the first inn...).

[Lycan 01]

So, which attribute(s) can I make low, and still be (relatively) effective as a Bard?

[Deme]

Depends on your build. Sadly, Int and Wis are nice for Bards...but if you're doing a Con-based, Melee Bard, they become a bit less essential. Wisdom is less important, overall.

[Lycan 01]

Con is nice, yes...

So how would one roleplay a low Wisdom Half-Orc Bard?

[DabblerWizard]

Con is nice, yes...

So how would one roleplay a low Wisdom Half-Orc Bard?

A character with low wisdom, but high or moderate intelligence might choose logically consistent, but otherwise foolish actions with little appreciation for future consequences.

"Why did you take an axe to their front gate?!"
"Because it was locked, and I wanted to get us inside."

This character would also not be especially insightful into another character's psychology (i.e. their motivations, their intentions, the underlying reasoning for their behavior...)

"[Fellow character], I figured out that you were doing something naughty with that guard last night... why are you blushing and swatting at me? Isn't it true?"

A low wisdom bard might play his music for only a very specific set of reasons, unless he can be convinced with straight forward logic. Any character that tries to use implicit, non-direct reasoning, might find that their suggestion goes unheeded.


"The king wants you to play music for him."
"Oh no way. I only play my violin after it's been properly polished, and it's all dirty from last night's camp fire."
"But he would be much happier if you did."
"Oh well."

[Lycan 01]

Okay, let me try...


Situation: Locked door.

Player 1: Hold on a sec, let me lockpick this do-
Me: *runs into the door, smashes it open, and keeps running*
Player 1: -or...

Or...

Player 1: Hold on a sec, let me lockpick this door.
Me: Oh! Oh! I can help! *begins to play on violin* Tumble tumble tumble the tumblers into place! Stick stick stick the lock with your pick! Yaaaaaaay, I'm adding situational bonuses to your thievery rolls!
Player 1: *fails roll in frustration* What the **** are you talking about?
Me: I have no idea. *kicks door in*


Situation: Surrounded by enemies

Player 1: Oh crap, we're surrounded!
Me: Wait! Music sooths the savage beast!
*dead silence*
Player 2: What are you waiting for?!
Me: I dunno what that actually means...

Or...

Player 1: Oh crap, we're surrounded!
Me: Wait! I just realized something!
Player 2: What?!
Me: I can fiddle with my teeth! *holds violin with both hands and begins to play with the bow in his mouth*
Player 3: I hate him so much...


Situation: Entertaining royalty

Player 1: The King wants you to play some music for him. This is out big break!
Me: But I don't know what to play...
Player 2: Just play something!
Me: Uh... Okay. *plays the first thing that comes to mind - an old song about how a king was assassinated by a band of adventurer's he trusted while their bard distracted him*
Everyone:
King:
Me: I can see all his teeth! That's the biggest smile I've ever seen! I think he likes it! Yaaaaay!
Player 3: *facepalm* Rot in Hell...

Or...

Player 1: The King wants you to play some music for him! This is out big break!
Me: Big break?
Player 2: Yeah, so go out there, and break a leg!
Player 3: Knock 'em dead!
Me: Okay... *goes up to king, and begins to play violin. Then, without warning, smashes the violin over his head, breaking his neck and knocking him dead.*
Everyone:
Guards: Get them!
Me: *breaks guards' legs* Okay, now what guys?



How does all that sound?

[BobTheDog]

Taking on the darker side, you might go for some dip of divine stuff. Choose a god that fits your concept and some way that works with rogue (too late in the day for me to search for options, but you should be able to get some Str-based paladin/cleric attacks if going Brutal rogue or Cha-paladin attacks if going Scoundrel... or utilities/non-stat dependant powers for the other classes). Sehanine might be a nice deity, with the trickery thing she's got (get channel divinity or something). Feat-costly, but might be rewarding.

For extra darkdom, why not a revenant halfling? You still get a bonus to Dex (plus some extra HP and healing surge) and you'll be friggin' undead. If you planned on brutal rogue, it's very nice, but you'll be missing out for a scoundrel. Did I mention you'll be undead?

Edit: Oh yea, you'll also be a Medium halfling, since all revenants are medium-sized, whatever their background (might want to discuss this with your DM if you'd rather be a Small revenant).

[Lycan 01]

What book has Revenant in it? We've only got PHB 1 and 2, MM, and DMG... (DnD books are expensive! )

Wait, what about Avenger? Y'know, the religeous assassin class? Or should I just stick with Rogue?

[DabblerWizard]

Lycan's Post Spoilered

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Okay, let me try...

Situation: Locked door.

Player 1: Hold on a sec, let me lockpick this do-
Me: *runs into the door, smashes it open, and keeps running*
Player 1: -or...

Or...

Player 1: Hold on a sec, let me lockpick this door.
Me: Oh! Oh! I can help! *begins to play on violin* Tumble tumble tumble the tumblers into place! Stick stick stick the lock with your pick! Yaaaaaaay, I'm adding situational bonuses to your thievery rolls!
Player 1: *fails roll in frustration* What the **** are you talking about?
Me: I have no idea. *kicks door in*


Situation: Surrounded by enemies

Player 1: Oh crap, we're surrounded!
Me: Wait! Music sooths the savage beast!
*dead silence*
Player 2: What are you waiting for?!
Me: I dunno what that actually means...

Or...

Player 1: Oh crap, we're surrounded!
Me: Wait! I just realized something!
Player 2: What?!
Me: I can fiddle with my teeth! *holds violin with both hands and begins to play with the bow in his mouth*
Player 3: I hate him so much...


Situation: Entertaining royalty

Player 1: The King wants you to play some music for him. This is out big break!
Me: But I don't know what to play...
Player 2: Just play something!
Me: Uh... Okay. *plays the first thing that comes to mind - an old song about how a king was assassinated by a band of adventurer's he trusted while their bard distracted him*
Everyone:
King:
Me: I can see all his teeth! That's the biggest smile I've ever seen! I think he likes it! Yaaaaay!
Player 3: *facepalm* Rot in Hell...

Or...

Player 1: The King wants you to play some music for him! This is out big break!
Me: Big break?
Player 2: Yeah, so go out there, and break a leg!
Player 3: Knock 'em dead!
Me: Okay... *goes up to king, and begins to play violin. Then, without warning, smashes the violin over his head, breaking his neck and knocking him dead.*
Everyone:
Guards: Get them!
Me: *breaks guards' legs* Okay, now what guys?

How does all that sound?

First of all, all of your suggestions are hilarious, which is great.

In the locked door situation, based on my suggestions, the first example is right on, but the second makes use of a Fourth Wall violation by mentioning thievery skill... If you took out that part, it would be fine.

In the surrounded by enemies part, in the first suggestion, you made him seem unintelligent, as opposed to un-insightful, by suggesting he didn't understand the phrase. The second suggestion is good because he allows himself to be caught up in his thoughts, instead of realizing the importance of staying focused in a dangerous situation.

Both of the entertaining royalty ideas are good examples of misunderstanding people, and not reading people well, which as far as I can tell, has a lot to do with wisdom, partially because I interpret wisdom as being the skill related to social graces and empathy.


Here's another example I came up with.

At night, players are hiding around a corner, watching a few soldiers stand guard.

"Okay bard, we need to be stealthy... we have to make sure they can't see us."

Speaking out loud: "Hmm. If I put out the lamp above their heads, they'll be in the dark" - Proceeds to throw an axe at the lamp.

[Edit]

Following this last example, the bard proves that he can be logical (having to do with his intelligence), but not particularly insightful, because he's not considering the actions the soldiers would likely take if a lamp exploded above their head, i.e. hunt down and attack the players.

In other words, I am suggesting that foresight isn't one of his greatest strengths.

[Lycan 01]

In the surrounded by enemies part, in the first suggestion, you made him seem unintelligent, as opposed to un-insightful, by suggesting he didn't understand the phrase. The second suggestion is good because he allows himself to be caught up in his thoughts, instead of realizing the importance of staying focused in a dangerous situation.At night, players are hiding around a corner, watching a few soldiers stand guard.

The way I saw it, he has the intelligence to know such sayings and phrases and be able to say them or point them out in situations they may prove useful in. But he doesn't have the Wisdom to actually apply them and realize what they mean to the situation.

"Okay bard, we need to be stealthy... we have to make sure they can't see us."

Speaking out loud: "Hmm. If I put out the lamp above their heads, they'll be in the dark" - Proceeds to throw an axe at the lamp.

In other words, I am suggesting that foresight isn't one of his greatest strengths.

Nah. I'd cover my eyes and say: "If I can't see them, they can't see me."

Or I'd sneak out there, and jab 'em in the eyes with my violin bow so they wouldn't be able to see me...

[BobTheDog]

What book has Revenant in it? We've only got PHB 1 and 2, MM, and DMG... (DnD books are expensive! )

Wait, what about Avenger? Y'know, the religeous assassin class? Or should I just stick with Rogue?

It's insider only content. If you have access to it, it's in Dragon 376. Not sure if there are any feats etc. in other issues, but I think so. It's also in the Compendium/Builder, again, if you have some means to get it (either a subscription or a friend).

Avenger might be interesting, specially if you select a mean deity (the Raven Queen springs to mind). Doesn't mesh too well with Revenant, though (neither halflings, for that matter).

And you think DnD books are expensive? Try getting them in Brazil. Translated versions are double the price of the imported ones in the U.S., and the imported ones are available for something around 80 bucks each, unless you order them from Amazon and hope they don't go M.I.A. But I love each one of mine dearly, of course.

[Lycan 01]

Dang. O.o

Hm. I think I'll pass on the Revenant. I don't want him to be undead, just slightly deranged. And I'm not sure if I want him to be religiously motivated, or if he was just born with or developed a twisted sense of justice... I'm leaning more towards the latter.

[BobTheDog]

It was just an idea, since it's not a race everyone would consider. Tiefling might also fit in with the "weird notions of justice" theme.

I'll make you feel all the pain you didn't find in Hell, evil ones!

Edit: Thinking about it, I think I know another character you might use for inspiration: The Punisher. Now that's a badass mean wicked anti-hero who'll beat the trash out of anyone who's doing wrong stuff in his vicinity.

[Lycan 01]

Yeah, but he's still mostly sane. I like Rorschach's brutal and insane outlook on good and evil. I mean, the Punisher is great. He's got the cold and callous outlook on good and evil, and what punishment evil deserves. But Rorchach is also quirky, which could lead to some funny roleplaying options.

Then again, I'm not completely ripping off any specific character, only using them for inspiration. So I suppose I can just take aspects of Rorschach, the Punisher, and other vigilante characters... Oh, how 'bout Ghost Rider? That actually makes more sense if I decided to try the Revenant idea...

[Dimers]

Definitely use Rogue for the first character. They have crossbow-based attack powers, and of course you need to be using a crossbow ... specifically, a grapnel gun

I agree that the second character sounds low on Wisdom but fine for Intelligence.