So Succubus...

[nekomata2]

The Succubus monster progression from Savage Species. Is it any good? Or what can you do with it? I was thinking about using it in a game, starting at 8th level. Being underpowered is hardly an issue, but not something I like personally. So any advice, opinions, etc?

[Grumman]

What do you want out of it? Is it something you could mimic with some cheaper Race+Class combination?

[Kurald Galain]

The Succubus monster progression from Savage Species. Is it any good? Or what can you do with it?

Well, as they say, there's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and then there's friendly contact with an evil outsider...

[nekomata2]

Nothing in particular. One of the players is playing a Barghest, so I was looking at the Savage Progressions, saw Succubus, and went "well, maybe" if its not worthless. So I was seeing what people thought of it.

[Optimystik]

Well, as they say, there's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and then there's friendly contact with an evil outsider...

If your character needs to literally be an evil incarnation of illicit sex to get laid, s/he's doin' it wrong.

[Stompy]

Succubi have two huge abilities going for them:

-Huge inherent Charisma: With a +16 racial bonus, Succubi are VERY charismatic. I knew someone in an epic game that went as a Succubus Paladin.

EDIT: I would try to get as many CHA-based abilities as I could. My first thought would be Paladin 2/MonkY/SorcererZ(?) and then take the feat that makes the monk AC bonus based off of CHA instead.

CHA-based Charm Monster at-will: This starts at DC 22. Spam it on every important person wizard you meet (duration 1 day/level) until 20 concurrent charms are on them. Then, with proper bluff and diplomacy, you can have your own wizard army that do most of the things you want them to do!

[Runestar]

My key concern would be what to do after succubus. I can't think of any class which complements it well. It is literally a dead end class.

It should be fun for the 12 lvs of the savage progression. Afterwards...

[BenTheJester]

They have 6RHD and 6 LA, which makes them quite bad. Although, if you can take the Mark of Nessus(good luck roleplaying it so you can pass as a servant of Asmodeus), it makes you totally awesome.
Mark of Nessus makes it so everybody needs to make a Will Save(DC based on your charisma *winkwink*) to TARGET you with anything.

I once played one in a RP heavy campaign and she was great, I even played her in a good-aligned group(including a paladin), she posed as some kind of were-bugbear, who used a Stunning Surge Heavy Flail.

Taking levels in Fiend of Possession(Fiend Folio) is incredible. But you have to get to level 13 to do that.

Some good builds would be Fiend of Possession 6/Paladin of Slaughter 2 or, even better, Cleric 1/Fiend of Possession 6/Whatever 1.
Cleric grants you access to turning. Great charisma means great number of turns, great number of turns means a lot of uses for those juicy Divine Feats.

[JeminiZero]

EDIT: I would try to get as many CHA-based abilities as I could. My first thought would be Paladin 2/MonkY/SorcererZ(?) and then take the feat that makes the monk AC bonus based off of CHA instead.

The feat is Ascetic Mage, it requires improved unarmed strike and spontaneous casting of L2 Arcane spells. It lets you apply any class feature that grants Wis to AC, and use Cha to AC instead.

Thats right, that means it works with the Unarmed Swordsage as well. That said, the huge HD and LA penalties means that your Succubus is unlikely to be keep up with the casting until epic ECL. If you do want to take this feat, just splash Sorc and pick up L2 Arcane spell with Precocious Apprentice, and it doesn't have to be Sorc either, you could gun for a more martial base class... like Bard. Take a couple of levels in Bard and grab Snowflake Wardance (apply Cha to attack and damage).

Beyond that, either put the rest of your levels in Crusader and hope that your HD counts as half towards initiator levels, so you can grab some mid-end strikes, which use Cha as the saving throw. Or Else pick up Paladin as mentioned, and get Devoted Performer (Bard and Paladin stack to determine Bardic Music uses and Smite Evil, essentially more Snowflake Wardance)

[tahu88810]

With core alone: Succubus Bard. It's sort of broken.

[Starscream]

Well, the main ability boost you get is (obviously) to charisma. Most classes that need high charisma are spellcasters, and it's rarely (meaning never) a good idea to give up caster levels.

But succubi also get some decent spell likes, and boosts to other abilities. Along with DR, and resistances. SR is usually more trouble than it is worth though.

And the HD you get are Outsider HD, which are among the best. Second only to Dragon, really. Good skills, saves, and BAB. Overall, not a bad choice, so long as you can find something to do with your massive charisma. Paladin would indeed be a good choice.

[Teron]

There's a Thrall of Malcanthet PrC whose fluff is basically "worship the queen of succubi, and turn into one" in Dragon 353. I don't remember how powerful it is, but it's probably better than using the monster progression.

[Greymane]

Don't forget: The Savage Progression has the ability to summon your Big Bad Boyfriend (Balor). The odds of him getting off his lazy arse and stop playing Grand Theft Carriage long enough to rescue you is pretty slim though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hexblade might be an option. As I understand it it's kind of an arcane pseudo paladin with an attitude problem

[AustontheGreat1]

I always loved fiend of corruption myself.

[dsmiles]

Personally, I found all of the "monster class progressions" to be poorly written, but if you insist on playing one, a Succubus/Bard or a Succubus/Warlock would be a good choice for lots and lots of Charisma based abilities.

[Lioness]

Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

[Zeta Kai]

My key concern would be what to do after succubus. I can't think of any class which complements it well. It is literally a dead end class.

It should be fun for the 12 lvs of the savage progression. Afterwards...

Bard's not a bad choice, but Beguiler is even better. But for all-out synergy, any Charisma-based cased full caster would be awesomesauce. You know, like Sorcerer?

[Ernir]

Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Probably, but it is not without precedent.

[Noble Savant]

Convince your DM to let you take this feat. Become a Bard/Dervish. Destroy the world utterly.

If you can't find a way to make the fact that every opponent is shaken work for you, you aren't doing it right.

[Cyclocone]

Well, if you're playing a Succubus, you might as well do something that takes advantage of the her innate talents*.

Since you get Change Shape and Detect Thoughts, Mindspy and Warshaper should be open.

Just load up on Quicken SLA, Mindsight, Rapid Strike etc. and Greater Teleport to town.

*No, not those "talents".

[Longcat]

Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

With all the Drizz't fanboys/girls playing good Drow, I think we may have a double standard here.

[Tokiko Mima]

Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Nothing in the paladin rules actually prevents a Succubus from being a paladin. If it said 'cannot be evil or chaotic' that would be a problem, but the amazing properties of doublethink allows an enterprising Succubus to be simultaneously Lawful and Chaotic, whilst being both Good and Evil for all relevant purposes. Moral flexibility is where all the action is, don'tcha know?

[Devils_Advocate]

Pretty much anything that adds your Charisma bonus to anything should provide significant synergy, be it a class level, feat, magic item(?), or whatever. The Paladin of Slaughter variant might be worth considering.

"Hm. Apparently when a paladin and an anti-paladin collide, they annihilate in a burst of energy."

A social Rogue build seems appropriate to the monster's general theme of mostly manipulating people and only rarely attacking opportunistically. Probably not very optimal, but I think that it'd be my first choice when considering how to advance a succubus NPC.

With core alone: Succubus Bard. It's sort of broken.

I'm not seeing what's so great about straight Bard for a succubus.

[Cyclocone]

Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Oh I wouldn't say that.

After all, isn't the point of a Succubus that she's willing to do everything? [/rimshot].

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm not seeing what's so great about straight Bard for a succubus.

Diplomacy?

[Prime32]

You could use Tome's method to calculate the ECL (lv8 in this case, with the option of adding two extra HD for free)

Or you could build a character who can emulate a succubus. Start with a changeling duskblade 3, find some way to inflict negative levels and channel it through your unarmed strikes. Cabinet trickster gets you mind-reading and alternate form. Closest build I've found to a standard succubus in abilities (if using Tome material) is Changeling True Fiend 5/Conduit of the Lower Planes 2/Duskblade 3 with the Otherworldly (changes type to Outsider), Demon Wings and possibly Harmless Form feats (Spheres: Violation, Voracity), though you'll need three more CotLP levels to make your SLAs at-will.


See this thread for more.

[Cyclocone]

I'm with Prime32 on this one, fluff is mutable.
So how about a Changeling Half-Fey (FF)?

For a mere +2 LA you get (among other things):
Minor Shape Change
Wings (60 ft., Good)
DR 5/cold iron
+4 CHA
Charm Person at-will
some 1/day Enchantment SLAs (take Magic in the Blood from PGtF to make them 3/day)

Basically, everything you need to emulate a Succubus.

[Moak]

I'd had a Succubus (and a Deva) in my playing groups.

The problem is always "after?",but for they're savage progression level they go good.

Mine players who played Succubi tossed up some fiend of X after those level (one of possession,one of blasphemy)

The deva started up some fighter levels.

I would probably AVOID full casters. You would have many spells,high CD but...crappy spell. Take a look directly to gish PRC,the ones with their own spell progression like assassin (actually,if your master allow you to make a cha-based spellcasting assassin,it can be very very interesting). Or level in some militar class...I don't remember if there is any tob class cha based....

Some paladin,some hexblade.

Debuff the world,when you are not saying to anyone "you are my slave"...or play a tuned-down diplomacy build.

Some savage progression in actual play,specially in a non-overoptimized group (and one with a barghest don't seem an optimizing warfactory to me) can do pretty well..and go to town.

[Random832]

Probably, but it is not without precedent.

"As long as she remains good-aligned, however, no vrock will answer her summons." - wait, they just magically know? There goes my succubus malconvoker idea.

Nothing in the paladin rules actually prevents a Succubus from being a paladin. If it said 'cannot be evil or chaotic' that would be a problem, but the amazing properties of doublethink allows an enterprising Succubus to be simultaneously Lawful and Chaotic, whilst being both Good and Evil for all relevant purposes. Moral flexibility is where all the action is, don'tcha know?

Well, really, it depends on whether you consider class alignment restrictions an "effect". (however, "The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment." would seem to imply you could still become a paladin even if this were the case)

Personally, I found all of the "monster class progressions" to be poorly written, but if you insist on playing one, a Succubus/Bard or a Succubus/Warlock would be a good choice for lots and lots of Charisma based abilities.

Well the point is supposed to be that by the time you've finished it you're exactly at the point of being a level-0 monster character with normal racial abilities, HD, and LA, plus any real class levels you've taken.