TPK caused by friendly fire(ball)

[HailDiscordia]

So our campaign came to an abrupt end with a total party kill in the last session. This certainly isn't the first we've had, but I don't think I've ever seen it go down quite like this. Oh yeah, I'm the DM.

The party are all 12th level (except one is 11th) and are starting to get involved in a double agent/political storyline. They were trying to rescue a political prisoner from a public execution in order to get in good with the insurgents, the plan being to then sell them out to the crown for lots of money. And then doublecross them too...The actual rescue plan got derailed like most plans do and they wound up having a big fight in the town square. They did not count on the appearance of a very tough foe and things went downhill pretty quick for the PC's. Two of the party were already dead when the Sorcerer teleported the Ghost Faced Killer and the Abjurant Champion into melee range of the main foe. They started battling him and on the following round the Sorcerer cast a fireball at him. Now, since they were all in melee range it affected them all and wound up killing everyone but the Sorcerer, who would then die the next round.

Of course the Sorcerer immediately tried to take it back when the other players started to groan, but I didn't let him. He is a novice player, this is his first campaign. But this was also the 14th adventure of the campaign and the third time that he did pretty much this same exact thing. I let him slide the first time, he almost killed the Abjurant Champion the second time, so you think he would have learned by now. Generally at our table if you say you are doing something then you've done it. Am I being too hard?

I'm a little bummed because I had some good things coming up, but I guess this is the way that it goes. We'll start a new campaign next week and look back fondly on this.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Let him learn painfully.

[Lapak]

Yeah, since this was the third time AND the entire party made enough bad decisions to turn a rescue mission into a brawl in the public square, I'd say let it stand. EDIT: I should really emphasize that the second half of that is the convincing factor for me. If he'd managed the TPK on his own, that'd be one thing, but there's blame to spare as you've described it. [/edit]

Figure out what the repercussions of their fight would be, advance the plot two months, have them start a new group of characters in the resulting political climate. You get to have them die and THEN realize the consequences from a living perspective, and they'll probably actually appreciate that their last group of characters had a meaningful impact on the campaign world (even if that impact wasn't entirely positive.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And the new group's mission shall be to track down and bring to justice the pyromaniac who incinerated his team and several town guards two months ago...

[HailDiscordia]

Figure out what the repercussions of their fight would be, advance the plot two months, have them start a new group of characters in the resulting political climate. You get to have them die and THEN realize the consequences from a living perspective, and they'll probably actually appreciate that their last group of characters had a meaningful impact on the campaign world (even if that impact wasn't entirely positive.)

Eh, I'm content to let the plot die. They really wanted to know what kind of treasures were buried in the castle, and now they never will! Plus, I'll recycle some of the surprises that were never realized. Though there is a good chance they may wind up hearing the tale of the party in a future campaign. And truth be told I'm surprised an evil party lasted as long as they did.

[Person_Man]

Honestly if he doesn't understand how to use area of effect attacks intelligently, he shouldn't be using area of effect attacks. It's not like he can't play a sorcerer without them.

[AslanCross]

Honestly if he doesn't understand how to use area of effect attacks intelligently, he shouldn't be using area of effect attacks. It's not like he can't play a sorcerer without them.

This, pretty much. I can't seem to wrap my head around why anyone would do that.

[Starbuck_II]

They started battling him and on the following round the Sorcerer cast a fireball at him. Now, since they were all in melee range it affected them all and wound up killing everyone but the Sorcerer, who would then die the next round.

Do you use mini's? That usually helps you see rather than guessing fireball area.
Is it possible he could fireball the bad guy without hitting allies (unless they were flanking enemy)?

[HailDiscordia]

Do you use mini's? That usually helps you see rather than guessing fireball area.
Is it possible he could fireball the bad guy without hitting allies (unless they were flanking enemy)?

We do not use any sort of visual representation. But he teleported two other characters in, both of which started to make full round attacks. It was pretty clear. It was really just a case of a player being real dumb. I'm not sure what else to say about it. He has cast dozens of fireballs, he certainly knew how the spell worked.

It was real funny though. The look of horror on the abjurant champions face was awesome. It was actually more disgust than horror.

[Grumman]

I'm inclined to say this is all your fault.

Even if the player did not remember where everybody was, the character almost certainly should, and can probably see that their allies are in the blast radius. Every time a DM enforces this sort of thing, they force the players to fight the interface instead of having fun playing the game.

[FishAreWet]

Even if the player did not remember where everybody was, the character almost certainly should, and can probably see that their allies are in the blast radius. Every time a DM enforces this sort of thing, they force the players to fight the interface instead of having fun playing the game.

100% agreed. Playing without a map is horrible.

[Lapak]

I'm inclined to say this is all your fault.

Even if the player did not remember where everybody was, the character almost certainly should, and can probably see that their allies are in the blast radius. Every time a DM enforces this sort of thing, they force the players to fight the interface instead of having fun playing the game.

That would be true, if not for the fact that he himself had JUST placed two allies in the blast radius, and they were currently engaging his target in melee. That's not a 'he forgot they were there' situation.

[Fiery Diamond]

We do not use any sort of visual representation. But he teleported two other characters in, both of which started to make full round attacks. It was pretty clear. It was really just a case of a player being real dumb. I'm not sure what else to say about it. He has cast dozens of fireballs, he certainly knew how the spell worked.

It was real funny though. The look of horror on the abjurant champions face was awesome. It was actually more disgust than horror.

If you have no visual representation, then you can't place full blame on him. Unless they were flanking the foes or something similar, it is quite possible he could have hit at least one of the enemies without hitting allies. Personally, I think that playing a game without any form of visual representation is generally a bad idea. Minis are not necessarily better than other visual representations, but unless every single player is really good at doing geometry in his/her head, you can cause lots of unintentional problems via not all having the exact same mental image if you have no visual representation at all. Personally, I would never play in a game with no visual representation. In fact, if it was the DM's idea to have such a game, then I fault the DM for any geometry-related problems caused by the players. Especially for a novice player: if he isn't a geometry person, you should never impose a no-visuals game on a novice player, or all problems he causes relating to that issue are fully your fault, no exceptions.

To summarize: since you used no visuals, it was your (as DM) fault, not the sorcerer's. I cannot emphasize how much I disagree with your choice enough.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Ernir]

Generally at our table if you say you are doing something then you've done it.

If this is and has been the convention for 14 adventures, I can't say you're being too hard.
The player goofed up. This is how you handle goofs at your table. Tough luck.

It's not the way I do it (I'd mostly be afraid of the other players resenting the one who screwed up), but I don't think this is a non-viable way to do it.

[Tavar]

Why couldn't he have just aimed the fireball so that the foe was caught on the edge of the blast? Seems you made a bit of an unfair call.

[Optimystik]

I'm inclined to say this is all your fault.

Even if the player did not remember where everybody was, the character almost certainly should, and can probably see that their allies are in the blast radius. Every time a DM enforces this sort of thing, they force the players to fight the interface instead of having fun playing the game.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Sillycomic]

I don't think this is a question of geometry at all. Certainly playing with minis and having the board laid out can help, but I've played in decent games where there have been no such visual aids.

I even played a sorcer in one. All area of effect spells were a simple question to the GM when my turn came up, "Can I cast X and hit the bad guys without hitting any of my allies?"

Aside from that, it sounds like the sorcerer... being new, just wanted to deal damage. Fireball certainly works, but I'm sure a sorching ray or lightning bolt would do just as well, and have less friendly fire.

I can't even blame the GM for being a **** about it... not after the third time. At some point you just can't take things back. The other times when the GM did take back the players actions, he obviously didn't learn anything about his powerful spells, area attacks, or looking out for his own allies...

After this third time, lesson learned.

[Dust]

I think it boils down to how the other players feel about it. If they're going to hold a grudge against the player for the TPK, even a little bit, then you did wrong. A lesson should never be taught in such a way that it negatively affects future gaming.

If they laugh it off and all's forgiven, then I'd say you made the right call.

[Shardan]

My friends had a party in 4e that did this consistently... of course the two melee were a Tiefling and paladin wearing fire-resist armor...

A little planning goes a long way

(of course, I also had an evil wizard do that on purpose too.)

[JadedDM]

I think you did the right thing. If the Sorcerer hasn't learned that age old D&D lesson by level 12, he had it coming.

[Grumman]

I think you did the right thing. If the Sorcerer hasn't learned that age old D&D lesson by level 12, he had it coming.

Killing off everyone else's characters to teach one player a lesson seems rather petty to me.

[Prime32]

I swear, this kind of thing would happen less if scorching ray was named "fireball" and fireball was named "raging inferno" or something. Everyone wants to cast fireball.

[Optimystik]

I think it boils down to how the other players feel about it. If they're going to hold a grudge against the player for the TPK, even a little bit, then you did wrong. A lesson should never be taught in such a way that it negatively affects future gaming.

If they laugh it off and all's forgiven, then I'd say you made the right call.

So I think Dust wins this one

[Thrawn183]

See I did this with Maw of Chaos on my party's paladin once. He freaked out until he realized I was just going to hit him with Mass Heal the next round. *sigh*

(Also, it finished off a vampire that had been giving us lots of trouble)

[Drakevarg]

Failing to notice that your allies are at point blank range of your target after you PUT THEM THERE is not at all a map issue. It's just plain stupid. The sorcerer got what he deserved, though it's the entire party's fault for getting in that scenario in the first place.

[Tavar]

Failing to notice that your allies are at point blank range of your target after you PUT THEM THERE is not at all a map issue. It's just plain stupid. The sorcerer got what he deserved, though it's the entire party's fault for getting in that scenario in the first place.

Because, you know, you can't aim so that the enemy is on the edge of the effect, and your allies are unaffected.

Or, you know, you've never had problems while learning a game.

[Flaming Nun]

^ You know that "DM" is just an abbreviation of "Death Machine."

If you aren't killing your players, you are not DMing properly.

[Drakevarg]

Because, you know, you can't aim so that the enemy is on the edge of the effect, and your allies are unaffected.

Or, you know, you've never had problems while learning a game.

Fireball is not that hard to figure out. For starters it's not a single-target spell. If you wanna blast someone specific use scorching ray or something.

So I have no sympathy for someone who does not understand that you don't throw a grenade into melee.

[Irreverent Fool]

Honestly if he doesn't understand how to use area of effect attacks intelligently, he shouldn't be using area of effect attacks. It's not like he can't play a sorcerer without them.

Some people understand perfectly how to use area-of-effect attacks intelligently and still place themselves at ground zero.

^ You know that "DM" is just an abbreviation of "Death Machine."

If you aren't killing your players, you are not DMing properly.

Can I sig this?

obnoxious
sig

[Tavar]

Fireball is not that hard to figure out. For starters it's not a single-target spell. If you wanna blast someone specific use scorching ray or something.

Because, you know, you can't aim so that the enemy is on the edge of the effect, and your allies are unaffected.

Also, did he have scorching ray available?