The experience point budget from the DMG 4.0

[realbombchu]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. I have almost no experience playing the 4th edition, and no homebrewing experience, but I would like to update one of my favorite adventures to 4.0, and I have a few questions:

Does anyone know what elementals the Zilargo gnomes of Eberron bind into their vehicles these days?

Am I right in saying that 2 Windstriker elementals (which are level 9 each, I think, and worth a combined exp. total of 800) is an acceptable challenge for a group of four level 5 adventurers?

I think that's all I need right now. Thanks!

[Mando Knight]

Theoretically, yes. However, despite the elementals' 4-level advantage, they do have an action economy disadvantage, especially since they're level 9 normals rather than level 5 elites, which have the same XP value but an action point.

[kc0bbq]

Since the monsters are character level+4 you'd have to take a look at the characters themselves and determine if it's overpowering or not. Can they hit them often enough? Can they soak the damage or evade them enough?

Level+4 starts to get into the fuzzy area where optimization and tactics make a difference, especially at lower levels. Some parties would barely be threatened. Some would have a pretty tough time of it.

[realbombchu]

Oh, I didn't think of any of those points, thanks. So it might be better with two level 5 elites or a larger group of level 5 normals? I'm not sure which to choose, to be honest. Have any of you played "Chimes at Midnight"?

[Inyssius Tor]

Does anyone know what elementals the Zilargo gnomes of Eberron bind into their vehicles these days?

No specific elemental monster, I think. If it matters, pick whatever would be thematically or mechanically appropriate.

Am I right in saying that 2 Windstriker elementals (which are level 9 each, I think, and worth a combined exp. total of 800) is an acceptable challenge for a group of four level 5 adventurers?

Not... necessarily. The encounter XP system, which is usually very robust, indicates that it oughtn't be a particularly difficult fight. But the encounter XP system is at its least accurate when predicting two things, and those two things are considerably-overleveled monsters (L+3, L+4, L+5) and lurkers.

So... yeah.

The windstriker has flight, hover, reach 2, insubstantial, and an at-will power that lets it escape whenever the PCs manage to pin it down. Two of them and nothing else could conceivably stay fifteen feet above the ground throughout the entire fight, rendering your melee characters useless as your ranged characters stand there and plink away at the sky. And the ranged characters would be annoyed by their always-on insubstantial, as well.

Assuming that the encounter would be in open terrain, I think you would be better off with one (possibly deleveled) windstriker supporting, say, a trio of level 5 bloodseep demons, reflavored as lightning elementals still partially bound to pieces of machinery.

[Mando Knight]

Not... necessarily. The encounter XP system, which is usually very robust, indicates that it oughtn't be a particularly difficult fight. But the encounter XP system is at its least accurate when predicting two things, and those two things are considerably-overleveled monsters (L+3, L+4, L+5) and lurkers.

And Celestia forbid you actually use it to figure out whether or not your party can handle an overleveled lurker. A Black Dragon of a significantly higher level is simply out of the question.

[Doug Lampert]

Not... necessarily. The encounter XP system, which is usually very robust, indicates that it oughtn't be a particularly difficult fight. But the encounter XP system is at its least accurate when predicting two things, and those two things are considerably-overleveled monsters (L+3, L+4, L+5) and lurkers.

I've never had a problem with overleveled monsters (except for the slow fights from overleveled MM I standard Solo's, but those aren't hard, just boring).

But I have an oversized party (7), and consequently oversized OpForces, so they're significantly less influenced by minor bits of luck.

Still IME overleved up to +7 or so works fine. Better than equal level quite often.

But I'll agree that I have definitely found that if you're having trouble running things Lurkers are a bad idea. I have a blanket recommendation that if you're asking for help building encounters you make EVERY encounter include at least two soldiers or skirmishers, no more than two total creature types, and no lurkers at all.

[realbombchu]

No specific elemental monster, I think. If it matters, pick whatever would be thematically or mechanically appropriate.

...the encounter XP system is at its least accurate when predicting two things, and those two things are considerably-overleveled monsters (L+3, L+4, L+5) and lurkers.

...

Assuming that the encounter would be in open terrain, I think you would be better off with one (possibly deleveled) windstriker supporting, say, a trio of level 5 bloodseep demons, reflavored as lightning elementals still partially bound to pieces of machinery.

I had no idea Lurkers were such a problem (as usual, you all are right, though, once I think about it a little more). I like the idea of simply reflavoring something. That will let me come up with something they think they haven't seen before without me having to homebrew the whole creature. I'm no good at making new powers yet. I'm sure I'll figure it out someday, but for now, I think I'll take a look at some of the existing lower-level elementals and see if I can change their flavor a bit. Thanks everyone!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

My 4e DM never threw lurkers at us (and I suppose that's a good thing). What's so unpredictable about them? Is it that they're either undetectable and overly effective or detected and quickly destroyed?

[illyrus]

Some of the most powerful monsters are lurkers such as the level 14 normal lurker Night Hag. Even with errata it can quite easily tip a battle from the PCs stomping the opposition to a TPK. Basically it just chain stuns or knocks PCs unconscious and then on it's next standard action become nigh invulnerable until the PC makes his save.

This isn't the only one, just one of the more commonly spoken of examples.

Bodak Skulks can be "fun" too with their ability to take a PC from 100% health to 0 health in 2 hits.