The Ultimate Optimization Challenge!

[Bookworm702]

Here it is folks. You are allowed one fifth level commoner with items appropriate for his level as a PC. all non third party feats and items are available. you must optimize him so that he is able to defeat a fifth level core fighter in one on one combat. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand....... GO!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Candle of Invocation.

[drengnikrafe]

Aside from Pharoh's Fist's thread-endingly awesome statement, there is a key problem. You're effectively asking us to improve a tier 6 by a tier-and-a-half with non-core, non-3rd party items/feats (because, clearly, anything taken core could also be done by the fighter, only he'll also be a little bit better at several other things).
It kind of... seems really silly to me.

*Facepalm*
What was I thinking. These boards to things like that all the time.

[Xzeno]

Candle of Invocation.

Took the words out of my mouth. Scroll of simulacrum wouldn't hurt either.

[Tavar]

Well, if you want to be a bit fairer, there's a build that gets several CR 16 animals as pets. The build used expert, but I think Commoner could work as well. Can't find the thread, though. It was something about optimizing with the lower tier classes.

[Zeta Kai]

The premise is inherently false. The "ultimate" optimization challenge would be something along the lines of this:

Truenamer 20!
VERSUS!
Wizard 20!

Round 1! FIGHT!

[arguskos]

The premise is inherently false. The "ultimate" optimization challenge would be something along the lines of this:

Truenamer 20!
VERSUS!
Wizard 20!

Round 1! FIGHT!

Wizard yawns. Truenamer's flesh is ripped from his bones, forms into an animate undead, and beats him to death. Wizard wakes up from his nap, wonders who that skeleton is, and says "sweet, free undead!"

[drengnikrafe]

The premise is inherently false. The "ultimate" optimization challenge would be something along the lines of this:

Truenamer 20!
VERSUS!
Wizard 20!

Round 1! FIGHT!

I'm so glad I swallowed my mountain dew before I read this post. I do so hate spitting all over my computer.

[JeminiZero]

You're effectively asking us to improve a tier 6 by a tier-and-a-half with non-core, non-3rd party items/feats (because, clearly, anything taken core could also be done by the fighter, only he'll also be a little bit better at several other things).

Actually, there IS one thing that the commoner can do that the fighter cannot, which in the right circumstances can tilt the battle to be an utterwin for the commoner

Chicken Infested.

[Signmaker]

Chicken Infested.

+UMD abuse + Greater Consumptive field = Dead Fighter.

[Bookworm702]

@ Pharaoh yeah that would do it.

@ dregnikrafe well yeah that's kinda what we do

@arguskos thats pretty much the only way that fights gonna end up.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, there's always a black ethergaunt commoner.

What about a Dragonwrought kobold loredrake white dragonspawn?

A commoner riding a warbeast hydra, maybe.

UMD a wand of Chain Spell'd launch bolt at CL 5? 5 bolts per attack.

I suppose if you were friends with a lair of kobolds you could Tucker the fighter to death.

Use Handle Animal and a bunch of warbeast wolves, riding dogs, and killer cuckoos infesting chickens.

[Eldariel]

Actually, there IS one thing that the commoner can do that the fighter cannot, which in the right circumstances can tilt the battle to be an utterwin for the commoner

Chicken Infested.

He also has Spot and Listen in class so he should fail slightly less at those. And may earn a surprise round simply by noticing the Fighter while Fighter is busy staring his crotch.

Also, umm, if it's non-core, you can just Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu win; Core Fighter doesn't have a chance really as he doesn't have access to Sarrukh nor Pazuzu.

[sonofzeal]

I humbly submit Bubs the Commoner. The build uses a level of Marshal, but with an extra level it might be possible to make up that gap left by the loss of Motivate Charisma.

[Tavar]

I humbly submit Bubs the Commoner. The build uses a level of Marshal, but with an extra level it might be possible to make up that gap left by the loss of Motivate Charisma.

This is what I was thinking of, by the way.

[sonofzeal]

This is what I was thinking of, by the way.

Ah, yes. Missed your comment. Good to see people remember it!

Hitting that magic number as a pure commoner is hard. The extra rank helps, and you can add Magic-Blooded for an extra +1. You also get more gold, so you can increase the custom +skill item and get a Circlet of Persuasion. If it works, it's only barely.

At level 6 it's certainly possible to do as a pure Commoner.

[term1nally s1ck]

The extra rank, magicblooded, and the extra money still leaves you 2 short. But I'm sure there's a slightly weaker dino that will still annihilate the fighter in a pack of 3...

[erikun]

Fleshraker x 3 ? Heck, spend some point into Use Magic Device to buff them with Venomfire while you're at it.

[term1nally s1ck]

by the CR, 3 fleshrakers is an easy fight for the fighter.

[sonofzeal]

The extra rank, magicblooded, and the extra money still leaves you 2 short. But I'm sure there's a slightly weaker dino that will still annihilate the fighter in a pack of 3...

There's a huge gap between Battletitans and the next best dino. You've got to drop three CR to hit Spinosaurus, which would still be nice to have around, but not quite the same ultimate pwns.

However, the original build didn't use a Cloak of Charisma, or a Circlet of Persuasion. I'd have to re-check my modifiers to make sure it all works, but that might be possible through some careful balancing.

[erikun]

True, but is that even necessary? You mention in your post that you can get 12-headed cryohydras. Three of them. Against a level 5 fighter.

That's a 3d6 breath weapon a head, for 36 heads. 108d6 damage, and I can guarantee you the fighter doesn't have evasion. Even minimal damage, halved, will kill a full health fighter.

At this point, the question is no longer "can the commoner kill the fighter?" It is "how badly to you want the commoner to kill the fighter?"

[sonofzeal]

True, but is that even necessary? You mention in your post that you can get 12-headed cryohydras. Three of them. Against a level 5 fighter.

That's a 3d6 breath weapon a head, for 36 heads. 108d6 damage, and I can guarantee you the fighter doesn't have evasion. Even minimal damage, halved, will kill a full health fighter.

At this point, the question is no longer "can the commoner kill the fighter?" It is "how badly to you want the commoner to kill the fighter?"

Point.

I should mention that the Fighter can pull this trick off too. He won't exactly be much of a Fighter, but all that matters here is having "Handle Animal" as a class skill, and how well the player can optimize that one particular number. Also note that if you're going for Magical Beasts, there's better options out there. Halflings only really win when it comes to Dinosaurs.

Marshals win either way though.

[Tavar]

Not if it's a core fighter. They can do something similar, but they will be limited to a lower level.

[sonofzeal]

Not if it's a core fighter. They can do something similar, but they will be limited to a lower level.

I don't see any element of the build that couldn't be applied to a Fighter. Granted that a Venerable Halfling does not make a particularly good Fighter, but that doesn't stop you unless you let it.

[Fizban]

Sooo late to the party, but it went like this:

*Clicks on thread. Reads first post. Reads second post."

Hahaha!, and Pharoh get's it in one!

Really the only way to win is to not play the game. After realizing that I, like most people, am actually True Neutral with no more than 2 or 3 levels and the non-elite array, you could optimize him as a normal person. Just make a normal commoner 5 with non-elite stats and crap gear and let his stats do the talking. Not much, but he can still swing a d20 at you, so he's not nothing.

[Tavar]

I don't see any element of the build that couldn't be applied to a Fighter. Granted that a Venerable Halfling does not make a particularly good Fighter, but that doesn't stop you unless you let it.

I meant more the fact that the fighter seems to be restricted to core materials. Of course, I could be misunderstanding the phrasing, but the OP does say "core fighter".

[sonofzeal]

I meant more the fact that the fighter seems to be restricted to core materials. Of course, I could be misunderstanding the phrasing, but the OP does say "core fighter".

Ah, yes. Yes, that'd do it.


Hmmm, how high could the Fighter get?

22 cha, Skill Focus: Handle Animal, Masterwork Tool, +9 custom item as per DMG rules, 8 ranks....


Yeah, I think we cap out at 28, limiting us to 8 HD magical beasts (but not train any reliably), or 13 HD animals. Meanwhile, our Commoner friend can (if we allow him a one-level dip in Marshal) be swinging around 24-HD Magical Beasts, or Rear and Train 14 HD Magical Beasts.

Good times.

[Tavar]

Well... for your 6th level feat, take leadership, either for a marshal cohort, or if possible, a marshal follower and a bard cohort.

[Superglucose]

How is the commoner beating out the fighter in handle animal?

What is preventing the fighter from doing exactly what the commoner did?

EDIT:
Oh wait, I accidentally misread the op. Ignore me!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, Truenamer vs Wizard fight might not turn out so bad as you might think...

A level of Exemplar, a few in Factorum... you can get some pretty broken skill checks fairly easily. And they do have some pretty nasty things they can do if you can consistently hit, oh... say a 95 DC...