Stunning the un-stunnable[3.5]

[RagnaroksChosen]

Question,

I've been searching for a way to Stun undead and other things that are immune to stunning... is there any such way?
Any 3.5 WOTC book.

[Sinfire Titan]

Question,

I've been searching for a way to Stun undead and other things that are immune to stunning... is there any such way?
Any 3.5 WOTC book.

It's called Dazing them. Unfortunately, there's no way to turn Stunning Fist into Dazing Fist.

IIRC, there's a Feat or ACF that messes with the Undead's immunity to Stunning in one of the more recent books.

[RagnaroksChosen]

you don't happen to know what book or what class?

[Starbuck_II]

It's called Dazing them. Unfortunately, there's no way to turn Stunning Fist into Dazing Fist.

There should be.

It isn't a power boost (Dazing doesn't deny dex, etc), but it is more useful (few are immune).

Back on main topic: pain touch, etc in Complete Warrior change the effect from stun to sickened/nausated. Freezing Lifeblood= paralyze. But none of those effect undead sadly.

Serpant Fang increases reach for an attack in exchange for Stunning Fist attempt. But that just enhances attacking.

[Sinfire Titan]

you don't happen to know what book or what class?

Hmm...

It's between CC, Exemplars of Evil, and about two others (not CS or CM though). Sadly, I have no exact idea.

The old CO boards at WotC may have something about optimizing Stunning Fist. It may have a location for you.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'm trying to build a character around stunning fist and i need to find a way to be usefull against things that aren't stunnable... or find a way to make them stunnable... I'd prefer not to use cheese like polymorph any object or any thing like that...

the only thing right now i have to combat undead is a disruptive weapon... doesn't realy help much...

or i could use firey fists... eaither way not that great.

[arguskos]

Well... why don't you just annihilate them with your fists of +5 awesome? I mean, if you can't stun them, just beat them into a fine powder.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm trying to build a character around stunning fist and i need to find a way to be usefull against things that aren't stunnable... or find a way to make them stunnable... I'd prefer not to use cheese like polymorph any object or any thing like that...

the only thing right now i have to combat undead is a disruptive weapon... doesn't realy help much...

or i could use firey fists... eaither way not that great.

There's a couple of feats that key off of Stunning that work great against Undead.

Pharaoh's Fist (the feat, not the user), Serpent Strike, a handful of others. If I wasn't AFB, I'd be of more help.

[Starbuck_II]

Isn't Serpant's Strike poison and Undead are immune?

[Sinfire Titan]

Isn't Serpant's Strike poison and Undead are immune?

True. AFB, so I can't look it up that easily.

[Telonius]

A Greater Truedeath Crystal attached to a Ki Focus weapon might be helpful, depending on the wording of the feats. (Expensive, I know, but it's the only thing coming to mind).

EDIT: There's another crystal that makes Constructs vulnerable to crits, too - Demolition, I think. I don't believe there are any for oozes; though I'm also AFB, so I can't check the Magic Item Compendium.

[Person_Man]

Ways to Daze enemies:

• Shield Slam
• Anvil of Thunder
• Boomerang Daze
• Ragewild Fighter
• Killoren Smite
• Devoted Inquisitor
• Cabinet Trickster
• Dire Flail Smash
• Ironsoul Forgemaster (living enemies only)
• Arcane Focus soulmeld (living enemies only)
• Incarnum Blast invocation (living enemies only, alignment restrictions)
• A few magic items I can't remember.

Freezing the Lifeblood turns Stunning Fist into a Paralyze attack, which also doesn't effect undead.

I would add that there is a wide variety of equipment that specifically kills undead. If you know that they might be a problem, then pick some up.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Is it just vulnerability to crits that allows stunning?


as of right now my ruff build is something like this:

human
monk 2/Fighter 6

1.
hb. ability focus (stunning fist)
mb1. stunning fist
mb2. combat reflexs
3. extra stunning
3f. weakening touch
6. Pharaohs fist
f6


Person_Man:
ehh True... I realy just want a build that capitalises on stunning fist attempts ...



all:

Actualy does any one have any good stunning fist builds?

[Person_Man]

Actualy does any one have any good stunning fist builds?

Well, its a very hard thing to optimize. You have limited uses, you have to make a successful unarmed melee attack, a failed attack wastes a use, it allows a Fort Save, the Fort Save has a Wis based DC, and whole categories of enemies are immune to it.

The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round - though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

[Boci]

The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round -

Unarmed swordsage 8 / Monk 2 / Shadow Sun Ninja 10?

though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

That's what other party members are for. Wizard hits them with chained fell frighten black moil stolen breath or something, rogue uses an ambush feat to lower their saves, ect.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well, its a very hard thing to optimize. You have limited uses, you have to make a successful unarmed melee attack, a failed attack wastes a use, it allows a Fort Save, the Fort Save has a Wis based DC, and whole categories of enemies are immune to it.

The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round - though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

freezing the life blood i was planning on adding as well as the AOE stun feat.

though that is a pritty amusing combo...

Boci: I wish the people i played with optimised more... most of them play blaster wizards and two weapon fighting warriors.

[jiriku]

While not a way to stun undead, Touch of Golden Ice is a feat from BoED that poisons victims with a poison-that-is-not-a-poison-and-only-affects-evil-creatures-so-it's-not-evil-to-use-it. Since it's "not a poison" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

[Boci]

it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

Is specifically states that undead are affected. They even take 1 additional point of ability damage from it. The static DC means that eventually you just have to pray they will roll a natural one, but its a decent feat, albeit with some annoying rp baggage.

Boci: I wish the people i played with optimised more... most of them play blaster wizards and two weapon fighting warriors.

Thats a shame. Is ToB allowed? If so you just have to hope they do not roll high on their save and be porepared that the combo is not going to work, unless you are allowed to take leadership, but that is doubtful.

[Ravens_cry]

Disruption works on bludgeoning weapons. Your fists are bludgeoning weapons.
Think about it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Is specifically states that undead are affected. They even take 1 additional point of ability damage from it. The static DC means that eventually you just have to pray they will roll a natural one, but its a decent feat, albeit with some annoying rp baggage.



Thats a shame. Is ToB allowed? If so you just have to hope they do not roll high on their save and be porepared that the combo is not going to work, unless you are allowed to take leadership, but that is doubtful.

Tob is allowed. However it holds an odd stigma with the players and gm... if for any reason i where to pull off any impressive damage they imidiatly think its over powered... even if a barbarian could do the same...
Example last session during 1 of the 3 fights i did 22 damage with my warblade(we are level 3, im using a +1 trident no power attack) and they cryed overpowered... so yes yes i can, though the unarmed sword sage varient isn't allowed.

Ravens_cry:ya i was thinking of diping kensi for disruption and the stunny weapon thing.

[Boci]

Tob is allowed. However it holds an odd stigma with the players and gm... if for any reason i where to pull off any impressive damage they imidiatly think its over powered... even if a barbarian could do the same...
Example last session during 1 of the 3 fights i did 22 damage with my warblade(we are level 3, im using a +1 trident no power attack) and they cryed overpowered... so yes yes i can, though the unarmed sword sage varient isn't allowed.

Well then go monk 2 / swordsage 3 / Shadow Sun Ninja 10 / Swordsage 5 or kensei. Use weapons, and at least the monk levels will help you in emergencies where you are unarmed.

Focus on setting sun maneuvers, since they generally do not deal much damage. Use counters over boosts and grab freeze the life blood and then use your highest level throwing level maneuver the spread the paralysis. If fighting something you know have a hige fort save use blood letting strike lower their fort.

A way to improve build, but may be considered too cheesy in your group: Obviosly you will want to take shadow blade and weapon finesse, that should be fine. You should try and get a fey craft weapon to save a feat, they are from the DMG II.

Also, if your DM allows leadership there are some nice ways to debuff with followers, but I'm guessing they do not.

[RagnaroksChosen]

see i wasn't sure if i should go like

Monk/cleric/cleric monk prc thing
or
monk/wizard/enlightend monk...

i think the bit of spell casting may help eaither as a debuff or to add other ways to stun or to buff...


psionics is another question though i don't know how good the stunny stuff is with that.

[Boci]

see i wasn't sure if i should go like

Monk/cleric/cleric monk prc thing
or
monk/wizard/enlightend monk...

I'd go monk 1 / wizard 4 / enlightened fist 10, arcane spells are better IMO. Take carmiac monk, or what ever that feat is called. Black moil fell fright stolen breath is a 4th level spell that will inflict the sicken and shacken condition on your opponent, no save or touch attack required. Blood wind should allow you to stun at range.

Necrotic skull bomb is a swift action spell that bestows negative energy levels on a failed fortitude save.

There may even be some spells that alter a creatures type, whoch could help you stun the unstunable. All I've found so far is aberate, which doesn't work, but there might be more (caster must be fiend and it gives you a fortitude save).

[Xenogears]

If you want to boost the DC for Stunning Fist you need more Wis. A single level of Shiba Protecter PrC from OA gives you Wis to Attk and Damage. I think it requires Iron Will (The Otyugh Hole gives this if thats allowed), Mobility, and Expertise IIRC. Combined with Monk your Wisdom now gives you AC, Attack, and Damage. Take two levels of Paladin and the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium for Wis to Saves. Now you can afford to dump everything but Wis and Con. That should make the DC's an auto win on anything but a Boss type.

[Starbuck_II]

Ability Focus also boosts the DC.

[Xenogears]

Ability Focus also boosts the DC.

By only 2 though. There is also a Combat Style in OA that increases Stunning Fist and all other pressure point attacks Dcs by +2. Requires a bunch of feats to qualify for though IIRC.

[RagnaroksChosen]

ya i saw the OA feat.. wasn't sure how good it is.

i wonder if there is any thing else from OA.

[Person_Man]

While not a way to stun undead, Touch of Golden Ice is a feat from BoED that poisons victims with a poison-that-is-not-a-poison-and-only-affects-evil-creatures-so-it's-not-evil-to-use-it. Since it's "not a poison" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

I thought that Undead were immune to ability damage? I guess I have to re-read Touch of Golden Ice.

Anywho, if you're trying to avoid ToB because of the stigma, what about Binder, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, or Glaivelock. Each has interesting "I hit you and something happens" effects, without being game breaking. Or are you wedded to Monk?

[RagnaroksChosen]

I thought that Undead were immune to ability damage? I guess I have to re-read Touch of Golden Ice.

Anywho, if you're trying to avoid ToB because of the stigma, what about Binder, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, or Glaivelock. Each has interesting "I hit you and something happens" effects, without being game breaking. Or are you wedded to Monk?

no its not even monks i would play a strait fighter that would have stunning fist abilities. etc


Edit: I just realy liked stunning fist and pharos fist

[Malbordeus]

theres a spell that nerfs undead immunities, but things i would suggest for your build include -

Versatile unarmed strike
Water splitting stone
Improved natural attack (unarmed)
Ki Blast

none help with the stunning, but you should find all useful against undead and other creatures.