High level non-magic characters [3.5]

[Lysander]

At high levels full casters are generally considered much more powerful than straight combat types like fighters or rogues. It might be the whole "create your own private universe" stuff that wizards are doing while fighters are still using horses to get around.

But could it be that high level non-casters aren't overpowered but that melee types are underpowered? What if they had high level feats like these to choose from?

Swiftness

Benefit: You may take two turns every round. The first is determined by your initiative, the second is the last action in the round after all other characters. If multiple people have the Swiftness feat their initiative determines the order of second turns.

Spell Invulnerability

Benefit: All harmful spells subject to SR have a 20% chance of automatically failing to affect you.

Great Leadership

Benefit: You can have up to three cohorts. Your cohorts also gain the leadership feat and can have cohorts and followers of their own.

I'm not suggesting these specific feats, but just to point out the kind of thing that could help. This isn't just a bonus to hit or an additional attack. It's a major change to the mechanic of the game.

I kind of think that high level melee characters should basically become superheroes. Even more so than now. A level 20 wizard with full buffs, summoned minions, shapechange, firing off high level spells, should still lose to a level 20 fighter in direct combat. The fighter should simply be that astounding, less Conan the Barbarian and more Hercules. A magician's only chance would be to outwit the fighter and lead them into a trap they've carefully prepared spells for.

[Aharon]

There are people who agree with you. Lot's of Material similar to that was created by the Gaming Den. You can find that material
here. Be warned that the martial classes outlined within are balanced against optimized wizards, so including them when the casters in your game aren't optimized, they might be stronger.
It also has the disadvantage of totally discarding the Wealth by Level concept - you may be uncomfortable with that.

[Mushroom Ninja]

You'd have to make sure that the feats have requirements that casters can't meet.

[Lysander]

You'd have to make sure that the feats have requirements that casters can't meet.

Yeah, they'd have requirements like high BaB, a certain number of hitpoints, high str/dex/con.

[Salanmander]

It may be that you'd want to give them even more anti-caster protection, sortof like Mage Slayer has. Like "a character with this feat who casts a spell of above 5th level permanently loses use of this feat" or something like that. I'd be worried about gish builds otherwise.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, they'd have requirements like high BaB, a certain number of hitpoints, high str/dex/con.

Not enough. Class features almost always make better requirements. BAB, HP, and ability scores can all be boosted, but class features can rarely be replicated.


Sorry Fighter...

[Lysander]

Not enough. Class features almost always make better requirements. BAB, HP, and ability scores can all be boosted, but class features can rarely be replicated.


Sorry Fighter...

Another requirement could be to have a certain number of fighter feats. You wouldn't necessarily have to be a fighter, but you'd need those feats.

[MichielHagen]

Not enough. Class features almost always make better requirements. BAB, HP, and ability scores can all be boosted, but class features can rarely be replicated.


Sorry Fighter...

There are tons of ways, one of which is Fighter inspired...

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.

You can pick exactly the classes you want boosted and at what level you want it available, what more do you want?

[Person_Man]

Do you consider the Binder, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Incarnate, Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, and/or Knight magic? Because I would say that the real problem is that core-ish melee classes were just poorly written, and that full casters just need to avoid the more abusive spells and combos.

[Riffington]

You should add abilities (set or from a menu of choices, like rogues have) to the base melee classes if you're going to do this, not just add feats.

3 reasons:
1. if it's a feat there's no good reason a caster shouldn't get it.
2. the whole "melee means multiclassing" thing is old and this'd discourage that a bit.
3. This becomes a "feat tax" since everyone who can take these takes them, which makes it hard to specialize.

[Milskidasith]

I kind of think that high level melee characters should basically become superheroes. Even more so than now. A level 20 wizard with full buffs, summoned minions, shapechange, firing off high level spells, should still lose to a level 20 fighter in direct combat. The fighter should simply be that astounding, less Conan the Barbarian and more Hercules. A magician's only chance would be to outwit the fighter and lead them into a trap they've carefully prepared spells for.

OK, this philosophy is as flawed as the one you are trying to stop. Yes, wizards are unbalanced... but why should a fighter 20 automatically win when the wizard has blown all his spell slots on buffs and summons? If that would work, that would simply reverse the tier lists and the game would still be as broken.

[Salanmander]

OK, this philosophy is as flawed as the one you are trying to stop. Yes, wizards are unbalanced... but why should a fighter 20 automatically win when the wizard has blown all his spell slots on buffs and summons? If that would work, that would simply reverse the tier lists and the game would still be as broken.

The thought that class A should beat class B in a straight 1v1 fight does not necessarily make class A better than class B. Class B may be better at dealing with hordes of enemies, for example. The metric for tiers is how useful they are in how wide a variety of situations commonly encountered when adventuring in a party.

[Oslecamo]

You should add abilities (set or from a menu of choices, like rogues have) to the base melee classes if you're going to do this, not just add feats.

Been there, done that.

The "Noncasters can't have nice things!" crowd rallied against it. Wich means I was in the right track. Nobody complains when there's a gish homebrew with fullcasting, BAB and other juicy bonus on top, but giving spell-level abilities to the fighter? Heresy!

Altough another thing I say that must be done is changing the base rules themselves. When you're flying, and you're hit, you should need to save or drop down on the ground (and get hurt from that). You should also get a penalty to AC since you've got nowhere to hide. This isn't just against casters, but also, well, every flying monster out there. Right now, flying is always better than walking. You have no disadvantages whatsoever! Except maneuverability, ok, but it's pretty easy to get it perfect.

Heavy armor should actualy protect you, not hinder you in such a way that nobody really wants to wear fullplate unless they have crippled speed and dexterity to begin with. Armor should count to touch AC (or just half) if built of the right shiny material.

Magic weapons should be able to breack magic, just like normal weapons can breack everything mundane. A wall of force would have big DR and HP, but a supercharger with a magic axe would go right trough it. A wall of wind would fall under a rain of magic arrows from a high level ranger.

Etc etc.

[Tyndmyr]

Epic Dodge is like this. You declare it vs a target. You auto-dodge any attack they target on you. This applies to things like orbs. It's prereqs make it pretty non accessible for full casters.

[Optimystik]

Epic Dodge is like this. You declare it vs a target. You auto-dodge any attack they target on you. This applies to things like orbs. It's prereqs make it pretty non accessible for full casters.

At which point they quicken a ray of frost to make you waste it, then smack you with the twinmaxed fell drain force orb they really wanted to hit you with.

That, or just use grease to force a balance check and you can't dodge anymore, epically or otherwise.

[Milskidasith]

The thought that class A should beat class B in a straight 1v1 fight does not necessarily make class A better than class B. Class B may be better at dealing with hordes of enemies, for example. The metric for tiers is how useful they are in how wide a variety of situations commonly encountered when adventuring in a party.

I know that. That does not change the flaws with the philosophy of "fighters should beat a wizard and his summoned army easily," especially because if a fighter can beat a wizard buffed up and a summoned army of creatures, he already has all the versatility of the wizard and AoE clearing just to defend against that.

Been there, done that.

The "Noncasters can't have nice things!" crowd rallied against it. Wich means I was in the right track. Nobody complains when there's a gish homebrew with fullcasting, BAB and other juicy bonus on top, but giving spell-level abilities to the fighter? Heresy!

Altough another thing I say that must be done is changing the base rules themselves. When you're flying, and you're hit, you should need to save or drop down on the ground (and get hurt from that). You should also get a penalty to AC since you've got nowhere to hide. This isn't just against casters, but also, well, every flying monster out there. Right now, flying is always better than walking. You have no disadvantages whatsoever! Except maneuverability, ok, but it's pretty easy to get it perfect.

Heavy armor should actualy protect you, not hinder you in such a way that nobody really wants to wear fullplate unless they have crippled speed and dexterity to begin with. Armor should count to touch AC (or just half) if built of the right shiny material.

Magic weapons should be able to breack magic, just like normal weapons can breack everything mundane. A wall of force would have big DR and HP, but a supercharger with a magic axe would go right trough it. A wall of wind would fall under a rain of magic arrows from a high level ranger.

Etc etc.

Don't take me out of context on this. The problems with your class were as stated in the thread, and I believe we even had reached the point where you were listening to the PEACH you asked for, and now you've decided to use it in another thread to say how great your ideas were while the big bad "melee can't have nice things" crowd ruined it for you. In reality, your class was horribly overpowered with no clear design intent besides "be awesome," no fluff besides "I'm awesome" and abilities that created infinite damage combos and allowed you to ignore most everything. Just because wizards can do such broken cheese doesn't mean you have to give it out as a class feature.

[Beorn080]

At a minimum, I think all non magical classes should get UMD as a class skill.

Spells seem to be the major problem. I mean, at 9th level, a wizard with a couple of weeks off can make a small mountain out of nothing with just the wall of stone spell. At 20th, with bonus spells and using every slot, that same wizard could make a mountain in a day. The fighter is lucky if he can dig a 20ft hole in a day at 20th level. So UMD would be a must at a minimum. Perhaps there should be a WBL adjustment for classes, with wizards and divine casters getting the base, sorcerors and bards getting a small bonus, and the non magical crowd getting maybe 50% over. I mean, wizards and divine casters pretty much get free world altering abilities as they go up, plus all the nifty trinkets allowed by WBL. The small bonus to sorcerors and bards is due to the limited normal spell list, making them more capable then the nonmagicals, but still not able to do whatever they want.

[Gnaeus]

Perhaps there should be a WBL adjustment for classes, with wizards and divine casters getting the base, sorcerors and bards getting a small bonus, and the non magical crowd getting maybe 50% over. I mean, wizards and divine casters pretty much get free world altering abilities as they go up, plus all the nifty trinkets allowed by WBL.

I suppose you could do that if you started at high level, but it seems like pretty twisted logic to apply as a universal law during roleplaying. I mean, the wizard and the druid slay the boss, then the fighter walks up and says, "I am non magic, I get an extra share!". Any party that would agree to that is running such a cooperative game that the low tier classes probably aren't in trouble anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

At which point they quicken a ray of frost to make you waste it, then smack you with the twinmaxed fell drain force orb they really wanted to hit you with.

That, or just use grease to force a balance check and you can't dodge anymore, epically or otherwise.

Waste it? It means you avoid the first attack per round. That hits you. So, even if they expend their quickened slot every round to negate it...it's not like they were going to not cast that quickened spell anyhow. It also means that unless both hit, they do absolutely nothing, and the quickened true strike before loosing the death orb isn't a viable option.

For a single feat, that ain't bad.

Yes, it does jack against AOEs, but it has improved evasion as a prereq. Presumably anyone with that isn't horribly worried about reflex saves to begin with.

Also keep in mind that epic saves increase at a constant point per two levels. Save DCs, on the other hand, increase by once per eight levels, assuming that's where you put your points. Sure, feats can boost that higher, but each feat invested in saves by the fighter gives a +4 to the save.

So really, it's not quite so crazy as it first appears.


Alternatively, or in combination, you have the epic feat Self Concealment. 10% miss chance for all attacks on you. It stacks with itself up to 50%.

So, it's quite possible to build an epic melee character that's rather hard for a caster to nuke to oblivion. Sure, surprise gets more important...but 3.5 has always been extremely rocket-tag like when it comes to surprise, with optimized characters.

[Beorn080]

I suppose you could do that if you started at high level, but it seems like pretty twisted logic to apply as a universal law during roleplaying. I mean, the wizard and the druid slay the boss, then the fighter walks up and says, "I am non magic, I get an extra share!". Any party that would agree to that is running such a cooperative game that the low tier classes probably aren't in trouble anyway.

Then remove the free spell parts of wizards and divine casters. Make it so they have to do research or donate gold/sacrifice a magic item to their diety/powersource to get more spells. Or never directly reward the magic users for their help. Take Roy vs Slavers. V didn't get any new trinkets, but Roy got himself a snazzy belt and Belkar got Spice. There are other ways of awarding loot other then the standard "Dragon's dead, here's your cut."

[Drolyt]

At high levels full casters are generally considered much more powerful than straight combat types like fighters or rogues. It might be the whole "create your own private universe" stuff that wizards are doing while fighters are still using horses to get around.

But could it be that high level non-casters aren't overpowered but that melee types are underpowered? What if they had high level feats like these to choose from?



I'm not suggesting these specific feats, but just to point out the kind of thing that could help. This isn't just a bonus to hit or an additional attack. It's a major change to the mechanic of the game.

I kind of think that high level melee characters should basically become superheroes. Even more so than now. A level 20 wizard with full buffs, summoned minions, shapechange, firing off high level spells, should still lose to a level 20 fighter in direct combat. The fighter should simply be that astounding, less Conan the Barbarian and more Hercules. A magician's only chance would be to outwit the fighter and lead them into a trap they've carefully prepared spells for.

I'm not sure about some of the other stuff posted so far, but to answer your initial question: yes and no. Spellcasters are broken in such a way that a party of them basically ruins the game. Basically to balance things you need to a) weaken the more broken spellcaster options b)strengthen the underpowered spellcaster options (I'm looking at you evocation) and C) make the melee classes stronger. As for the last part, a Wizard should be able to beat a Fighter, but not through buffs. A Wizard should have to use clever use of spells to beat a fighter. There should be a back and forth, with more skilled Wizards being able to beat less skilled Fighters and vice versa.

[Tyndmyr]

Then remove the free spell parts of wizards and divine casters. Make it so they have to do research or donate gold/sacrifice a magic item to their diety/powersource to get more spells.

Uh, wizards do have to pay gold and spend time to get new spells in their books. Yes, some groups skip over this in their dislike of bookkeeping, but it's a non-trivial gold/time cost for wizards who want to collect a diverse list of spells.

Now, adding a similar thing for divine casters is reasonable.

[Beorn080]

Uh, wizards do have to pay gold and spend time to get new spells in their books. Yes, some groups skip over this in their dislike of bookkeeping, but it's a non-trivial gold/time cost for wizards who want to collect a diverse list of spells.

Now, adding a similar thing for divine casters is reasonable.

I was referring to the two free spells per level that they get. Just making those require a gold investment would allow the non magical characters to catch up slightly to wizards. Naturally, if you remove all gold costs from wizards getting new spells, WBL becomes seriously unbalanced.

[Tyndmyr]

I like the free spells per level in there, as I think it provides a useful power baseline, and avoids DMs nerfing casters into oblivion by simply not providing them any spell access whatsoever. Frankly, without any spells, a caster would be a terrible choice.

I think you'd gain more by adjusting the cost to scribe spells than you would in taking away the free spells. After all, adjusting the cost tends to hurt casters in low-spell availability campaigns least, and in magic mart worlds the most....ie, in perfect proportion with the expected power of the wizard.

[Drolyt]

I like the free spells per level in there, as I think it provides a useful power baseline, and avoids DMs nerfing casters into oblivion by simply not providing them any spell access whatsoever. Frankly, without any spells, a caster would be a terrible choice.

I think you'd gain more by adjusting the cost to scribe spells than you would in taking away the free spells. After all, adjusting the cost tends to hurt casters in low-spell availability campaigns least, and in magic mart worlds the most....ie, in perfect proportion with the expected power of the wizard.

I don't think I understand you. Adjusting the cost hurts wizards far less in magic mart worlds, since he can just buy them. Also magic mart worlds are much better for non casters than casters, since it allows them to get twinked gear, which helps them much more than it helps wizards, and it gets them umd.

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't think I understand you. Adjusting the cost hurts wizards far less in magic mart worlds, since he can just buy them. Also magic mart worlds are much better for non casters than casters, since it allows them to get twinked gear, which helps them much more than it helps wizards, and it gets them umd.

He means increasing the cost to buy spells. As is, it's Scroll's price+Ink price as the most expensive method, and the cheapest is to pay for the Ink and 50gp/spell level by copying it from another Wizard. Remove the second option and Wizards now need a tad more of their WBL to work with. Doubling the price of some scrolls also works.

Edit: Also, adding an XP cost of 100/level of the spell will help control it. Smart players will avoid doing so, while optimizers familiar with the system will know that doing so only slows them down a little bit, and actually helps them level up.

[Beorn080]

The free spells per level is a problem, especially if WBL is strictly adhered to. As I said before, at 9th level, and without spending a single gold, a wizard can make a mountain fortress for himself using wall of stone, given enough time, simply because he got two spells for free. The fighter gets nothing for free. Indeed, strip a fighter, and you have nothing, while a wizard stripped can still use read magic at a minimum. The fighter has to purchase everything, whereas a smart wizard can make pretty much anything from nothing. At 11th, a wizard breaks the WBL with Wall of Iron, letting him pretty much do whatever he wants.

Note that I am merely using Wizard and Fighter as the "standard" magical and melee classes. It pretty much applies across the board.

[Tyndmyr]

He means increasing the cost to buy spells. As is, it's Scroll's price+Ink price as the most expensive method, and the cheapest is to pay for the Ink and 50gp/spell level by copying it from another Wizard. Remove the second option and Wizards now need a tad more of their WBL to work with. Doubling the price of some scrolls also works.

Right. Remember that copying off a scroll burns it.

Also, the most powerful wizards are those with the most spells(as a general rule of thumb...exceptions like killer gnomes exist). So, an overall price increase hurts the most powerful wizards the most.

Edit: Also, adding an XP cost of 100/level of the spell will help control it. Smart players will avoid doing so, while optimizers familiar with the system will know that doing so only slows them down a little bit, and actually helps them level up.

I would avoid an xp cost, as it penalizes only non-optimizers. Casters tend to lag a bit behind party level anyhow, due to item creation and spells that require xp, so spending more really....doesn't matter at all. The most this will do is add bookkeeping and discourage inexperienced wizards from stocking up on spells.

I prefer solutions that try to mitigate overall power disparity, including between optimizers and non-optimizers, since, IMO, balance between casters and melee is only one part of the balance issue.

[Drolyt]

The free spells per level is a problem, especially if WBL is strictly adhered to. As I said before, at 9th level, and without spending a single gold, a wizard can make a mountain fortress for himself using wall of stone, given enough time, simply because he got two spells for free. The fighter gets nothing for free. Indeed, strip a fighter, and you have nothing, while a wizard stripped can still use read magic at a minimum. The fighter has to purchase everything, whereas a smart wizard can make pretty much anything from nothing. At 11th, a wizard breaks the WBL with Wall of Iron, letting him pretty much do whatever he wants.

Note that I am merely using Wizard and Fighter as the "standard" magical and melee classes. It pretty much applies across the board.

Er, strip a Wizard of his spellbook and he is less than a Fighter stripped of everything. The Fighter can still punch people. But your example works perfectly well for spellcaster that don't store their reality altering powers in easily stolen books.

[Tyndmyr]

The free spells per level is a problem, especially if WBL is strictly adhered to. As I said before, at 9th level, and without spending a single gold, a wizard can make a mountain fortress for himself using wall of stone, given enough time, simply because he got two spells for free. The fighter gets nothing for free. Indeed, strip a fighter, and you have nothing, while a wizard stripped can still use read magic at a minimum. The fighter has to purchase everything, whereas a smart wizard can make pretty much anything from nothing. At 11th, a wizard breaks the WBL with Wall of Iron, letting him pretty much do whatever he wants.

Note that I am merely using Wizard and Fighter as the "standard" magical and melee classes. It pretty much applies across the board.

At the rate this would take, a fighter could start with a mountain and turn it into a fortress. Per SBG, underground walls made of stone = free for the first level underground. Well, ok, he might need to make a bunch of craft checks to make it actually practical, but fabricate requires craft checks to make anything beyond crude junk too, and wall of stone creates just that. A wall of stone. The ability to make lots of rock is hardly the most powerful ability of a wizard.