Versus High AC (3.5)

[Fiery Diamond]

So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?

[Eldariel]

Level, class, resources?

[Flickerdart]

So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?

Acid Fog should do the trick.

[Tavar]

Maximized Time Stop, then three walls of force(in a triangle), Then Transmute Rock to Lava/Polymorph any Object on the ground, then Prismatic Sphere above the whole contraption?

[Viletta Vadim]

Kineticist is fairly simple. Cold damage is fortitude for half.

[Vizzerdrix]

High touch AC? does that exist?

[Flickerdart]

High touch AC? does that exist?

Presumably the creature's entire AC bonus is Deflection or something similar, which applies against both Touch and Flat-footed.

[Myou]

Maximized Time Stop, then three walls of force(in a triangle), Then Transmute Rock to Lava/Polymorph any Object on the ground, then Prismatic Sphere above the whole contraption?

Wow, three walls of force? And even with all those spells, that doesn't seem likely to work on any creature with teleportation, a burrow speed, spellcasting, or a well chosen item or two.

[sofawall]

High touch AC? does that exist?

For monsters? Yes.

For NPCs with class levels? Yes.

For well built PCs? Hell yes, especially in an arena setting.

[Tavar]

That's just a combo I remember hearing on some thread about ways to pretty much assure damage. There are probably much better ways of doing it.

[The Dark Fiddler]

That's just a combo I remember hearing on some thread about ways to pretty much assure damage. There are probably much better ways of doing it.

Definitely. Maximized Time Stop takes up a level 12 slot; Epic Levels.

[Tavar]

Rods of Metamagic....

[Proven_Paradox]

High touch AC? does that exist?

If you're willing to go sword and board and have the feats to make it work, absolutely. Shield Ward only has one pre-req and is an excellent investment for a defense-based warrior. If you'd rather not shell out the pre-req, or want to use a tower shield (which you cannot take the pre-req Shield Specialization feat for), Parrying Shield can boost your touch AC too. If psionics are in play, get power points somehow (a dip into Psychic Warrior or drop a feat for Natural Talent) and pick up Heavy Armor Optimization and then Deflective Armor. Bam. I've got an Incarnate build that can easily have a touch AC better than 30 at level 9, without flaws.

Now, by doing all this, you're really taking a hit to offense and therefore not going to garner the attention you need from enemies to actually make that AC work for you. Not much protection from save producing damage effects. So in the end it still doesn't keep you from getting hurt.

[sofawall]

Well, there is a Cleric spell that gives you an automatic natural 20. Hard to miss with that. combine with another automatic 20 generator (there are at least two others) and a vorpal weapon, and, well, most things are dead.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Rods of Metamagic....

...shut up, I remembered they exist.

Still, though. You've got 9th level spells... I'm sure there's more broken things you can do with them. (So now I guess I'm just agreeing with you).

[Admiral Squish]

There's a feat in RoS that applies your normal armor bonus against touch attacks, and Lords of Madness has one that applies your shield to touch too.

[Kantolin]

Magic Missile?

[Starbuck_II]

High touch AC? does that exist?

A Wilder gets to add Cha to Touch AC up to normal non-touch AC. It is an untyped bonus.

So 2 dips in Wilder can be useful.

[herrhauptmann]

Well, there is a Cleric spell that gives you an automatic natural 20. Hard to miss with that. combine with another automatic 20 generator (there are at least two others) and a vorpal weapon, and, well, most things are dead.

Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

[Lycanthromancer]

A Quickened grease will have your foe flat-footed, meaning no Dex, dodge, or insight bonuses. A Quickened true strike will give you a +20. Belt one of those out and hit them with an enervation or a telekinesis. Combine with wraithstrike for more goodness.

Alternately superior/greater/invisibility, or polymorph into something with a super-high Strength, or summon something with high combat stats, or start Hiding. A couple of buffs (including HASTE!) on a 12-headed pyrohydra will seriously wreck his day.

You could also try things that don't really give much defense, such as maze.

Acid fog + dimension lock, followed by a stone shape, a wall of force (if he's by a wall), or a forcecage (greater shadow evocation ensures that you don't have to pay the gp cost) the following round.

You could try collapsing the room in on him. Kind of hard to avoid crushing damage when the entire room is encased in rock.

A properly presented trap the soul means no SR, no saves, no defenses at all.

Swarm of crystals (a psionic power) doesn't allow any defense but immunity to piercing, but you have to be within 15 ft of your target. Great for a The Big Guy is With Me build, but not so much otherwise.

Summon swarm for auto-damage and possibly some status effects on a failed save.

Try dispelling his buffs and magic items (if any) to reduce the AC a bit. A Chain Spell'd greater dispel magic is good for this.

Dust of sneezing and choking renders him debuffed and incapacitated, no save (which means you can have a few rounds to hit them with further debuffs). It should knock his AC down a bit, and should affect his saving throws as well.

Really, there are lots of these, most of which are in core.

[Myou]

Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

Uh, but a 20 is a crit.

[Lapak]

Magic Missile?

This made me laugh and laugh, because everyone else in the thread is throwing around 6th-9th level spells and you pointed out that it's quite possible from level 1 on.

[herrhauptmann]

Uh, but a 20 is a crit.

Misread his post. Oops. Thought he was referring to a divine form of Truestrike.
Still doesn't help against several creature types (plant, undead, ooze, etc), fortification armor, miss chances.

[sofawall]

Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

First off, vorpal is useless with a crit.

Second, use the auto-nat-20 from the Cleric spell (whose name I cann-Surge of fortune? That name just came to me) to get the vorpal. Second nat 20 gets a confirm. No more head.

[Myou]

Misread his post. Oops. Thought he was referring to a divine form of Truestrike.
Still doesn't help against several creature types (plant, undead, ooze, etc), fortification armor, miss chances.

Yes, it also falls prey to reality - I've never met a DM who'd allow that combination. I ban vorpal enhancements in general.

[Tavar]

Oh, another way; I'm not sure if it works, but could you do the standard Aptitude weapon/lighting maces trick? Only part I'm not sure about is if the Crit needs to hit or not.

[Optimystik]

This made me laugh and laugh, because everyone else in the thread is throwing around 6th-9th level spells and you pointed out that it's quite possible from level 1 on.

It's also quite possible to block at level 1 on.

[Lycanthromancer]

No more head.

That's something you might want to mention BEFORE the second date.

[Tavar]

It's also quite possible to block at level 1 on.

Additionally, it does a minuscule amount of damage. Yeah, at level 1 it isn't bad, but that's because any ammount of damage at level 1 is substantial. Even then, it's still not great due to limited times per day.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, True Strike > Orb is usually plenty good vs. high Touch AC+Evasion+Ref+SR+Miss Chance; you only need to beat the Touch AC-part and for that to be a problem, it needs to be in the 50s-60s.

If you need some more, shaped Anti-Magic Field, approach, above. Invisible. Very few things have non-magical flat-footed touch AC above 50. Mind you, it's possible, but very, very difficult and requires some stupidity already. Generally, Quickened True Strike > Orb with/without move is a good sequence.


Another good approach is attacking the Spell Resistance; between Assay Spell Resistance and True Casting, you can with one exceed SR by 20. Combust [SpC] or Maw of Chaos [SpC] are fine spells for this, for example. And yeah, heavily metamagicked Acid Fog is probably the safest way to take out things immune to every damn thing.

It offers no defenses of any kind and can still deal ~couple of hundred points of damage with sufficient metamagicking (half through immunities), and with level 9 spells, you can Time Stop and drop a handful of them on the same guy.


Or, of course, you can just cast Gate a couple of times if you've got 9th level spells (again, Time Stop pretty much ensures you have the actions to pull this all off) and have some Great Wyrms/Abominations/Angels/Whatever do your dirty work.

Also, sufficient Dispelling aimed at items tends to bring anyone's Touch AC down a ton. One sufficiently strong Chain Greater Dispel Magic through all your items is going to remove your defenses if it resolves.



Bottomline, casters have so many different angles of attack that it's practically impossible to block them all. Between anti-magic, dispelling and "damage regardless of what you have"-effects, finding sufficient defenses for that without epic magic is just a pain.

For the death cage? You use Dimensional Lock, Force Manifest and readied action to replace any Disintegrated Walls of Force, or preferably, shaped AMF from a position they can't reach still affecting them to keep them from escaping. Of course other casters can escape it, but martial types have issues.