OOTS #702 - The Discussion Thread

[Scarlet Knight]

Gobbotopia: worst name for a goblin nation ever.

It probably sounds much better in the original goblin...

[fishguy]

It probably sounds much better in the original globlin...

You win the thread... no further posts necessary

[Sijo]

I found the "the occupation ended... CUZ WE ARE OFFICIALLY A NATION NOW!" joke very lame. I was hoping to see some action on the Bad Guys part.

I wonder if what RC says is true: have all those nations really approved Gobbotopia? Apparently Cliffport did, but it sounds hard to believe that a swarm of Goblinoids (led by a Lich) takes over a major city and the rest of the world is just shrugging. Either they're afraid of Xykon, are just bidding their time- or RC is stringing his people along. Even Cliffport, as much as they might dislike the Paladin's honesty, are probably being idiots thinking Goblinoids would be any better.

Also, I get the impression that RC is celebrating WAY too early. He still has Xykon and The Gate to deal with... not to mention resistance forces within the city.

Presumably, the city will be rescued at some point. And since I have a feeling RC isn't going to survive to the end of the series, I wonder what will happen to the Goblin nation. Perhaps Rich will be kind enough to let it stand somewhere else; the whole "Humanoid Rights" thing has been a topic here for a long while now.

[hamishspence]

Greysky is the one not likely to be fond of paladins.

Cliffport, on the other hand, has a very strong take on the rights of prisoners, with "Detect X alignment" spells, being considered an illegal search.

Cliffport was also the most recent to sign up.

[Shale]

I found the "the occupation ended... CUZ WE ARE OFFICIALLY A NATION NOW!" joke very lame. I was hoping to see some action on the Bad Guys part.

That might be because it wasn't supposed to be funny.

[Optimystik]

That might be because it wasn't supposed to be funny.

On the contrary - Redcloak was oozing with smugness as he delivered that little gem.

[RMS Oceanic]

On the contrary - Redcloak was oozing with smugness as he delivered that little gem.

And how is smug supposed to be funny? Maybe he's smug because he believes he's achieving the cherished dream of a Goblinoid Nation.

[Big Hungry Joe]

Didn't #680 make pretty clear that every year a number of countries get conquered, and then within a year those conquerers are in turn overthrown? Given the pending 1-year anniversary of the conquest, it's entirely possible that Gobbotopia doesn't have long to go.

[bsparrow]

Didn't #680 make pretty clear that every year a number of countries get conquered, and then within a year those conquerers are in turn overthrown? Given the pending 1-year anniversary of the conquest, it's entirely possible that Gobbotopia doesn't have long to go.

On the Western Continent, which is dominated by a huge desert, and therefore has a lot of useless land for people to draw borders on.

A lush, heavily populated continent is probably an entirely different story. After all, Haley is dismayed when she learns that Tyrannia has probably been overthrown. If that was the norm back home, why would she be surprised?

[Grimly Feendish]

Moved this to a more appropriate thread

[imp_fireball]

Three generations in twenty years, do goblins really live that fast?

Maybe they just give birth at a very young age?

[Sebastian]

Before that, it's like messing with the lives of ants. Why bother?

Tell that to the kid with the magnifying glass.

[Doug Lampert]

{Scrubbed}

[Optimystik]

And how is smug supposed to be funny? Maybe he's smug because he believes he's achieving the cherished dream of a Goblinoid Nation.

I agree it wasn't funny - "witty" would be a better term - but what Sijo was getting at, was that Redcloak wasn't being nearly as witty as he thought he was.

[talkamancer]

In moden DnD what is Armour Class called. I get so confused when people talk about AC but mean Azure City. I therefore get the impression that AC isn't armour class anymore.

[Optimystik]

It's still called AC. The two just share an acronym as a coincidence.

[Father Dale]

{Scrubbed}

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think he was referring to "the government of the United States of America" when he was said "we." He used "we" in the colloquial sense, such as how they is used in "they say there's too many lawyers in the world."

What The Weirdo meant was that we, as a collection of individual persons, tend to make a moral--not a political--evaluation of nations that deny freedom of speech as being 'bad.' i.e. criminal.

There also seems to be a lot of disagreement in this thread due to a misunderstanding of the difference between a 'legal right' and a 'fundamental right.' The Weirdo has been using the definition of a fundamental right, and Humvee driver has been using the definition of a legal right. A fundamental right would be a right inherent to one's being as a human; The Weirdo's point is that a person has freedom of speech because an individual is a conscious, self-aware being that has the ability to make moral distinctions. Taking away freedom of speech is a bad thing in the moral sense, as it is a violation of the individuals personhood, and a nation that does this is bad or criminal.

The Humvee driver is looking at freedom of speech as a right in the legal sense, i.e. having the ability to enforce said right through the legal system. Humvee makes no distinction as to WHY that right exists in the legal system, only that it does and that it can in theory be enforced.

In the American legal system, 'freedom of speech' is both a legal right and a fundamental right. It was placed in the Constitution as a legal right BECAUSE it is a fundamental right; at least thats how the drafters of the Bill of Rights considered it and thats how it is treated in the American legal system.

I'm with The Wierdo on this in that I also consider freedom of speech to be a fundamental right. If tomorrow Congress proposed a Constitutional Amendment to abolish the First Amendment, and the States ratified this Amendment, I would consider that to be a very very bad thing. I certainly would not just shrug my shoulders and say "Oh well, I guess I don't have that right anymore." I would consider such to be a gross encroachment on the fundamental right to say what one believes that I think all people have inherently. If one considers freedom of speech to be a legal right and nothing more--that it there is nothing inherently good or bad about people having freedom of speech--then in order to be consistent you'd have to take the shoulder-shrugging route.

One final comment: The closest thing I saw in this strip that could be considered to have any reference to the United States directly would be the comment on Cliffport regarding using economic means to influence policy. The other references to an occupational force and insurgents are way too broad to be taken as a reference to any particular nation in any particular time; those situations have existed for as long as human history has been recorded.

Thank you, Father. Amen.

[hamishspence]

Its worth remembering, that in OoTS, "Lawful Good government" does not necessarily mean "has freedom of speech":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html

Is it a case of Azure City choosing Law over Good here?

Or simply deciding that state secrets + safety of the world, are enough to override the "freedom of speech principle?"

Come to think of it- might a CG D&D government be willing to limit freedom of speech?

[Kobold-Bard]

Meh, it was good but Gobbotopia, bit weak.

Not that I could do any better, but still....

[Doug Lampert]

{Scrubbed}

[Hyoumu Yau]

Well, It's a little late (I had stuff to do), and I'm probably not the first one saying this but.... That was a truly magnificent turn of events
I enjoyed every single moment of reading it

[Father Dale]

{Scrubbed}

[Teleporker]

I found the "the occupation ended... CUZ WE ARE OFFICIALLY A NATION NOW!" joke very lame. I was hoping to see some action on the Bad Guys part.

I wonder if what RC says is true: have all those nations really approved Gobbotopia? Apparently Cliffport did, but it sounds hard to believe that a swarm of Goblinoids (led by a Lich) takes over a major city and the rest of the world is just shrugging.

Well, all in all, remember that we're talking entire legions of hobgoblins rather than just a ragtag group, and they managed to bring down a nation that was basically swarming with paladins (whatever level they may have had).

Imagine the position of any other nations, specially those nearby. To them, this looks like the "Orange Tsunami" wiped out the best-protected place around, and anyone opposing them will meet the same fate.

[Dunesen]

I wonder if what RC says is true: have all those nations really approved Gobbotopia? Apparently Cliffport did, but it sounds hard to believe that a swarm of Goblinoids (led by a Lich) takes over a major city and the rest of the world is just shrugging. Either they're afraid of Xykon, are just bidding their time- or RC is stringing his people along. Even Cliffport, as much as they might dislike the Paladin's honesty, are probably being idiots thinking Goblinoids would be any better.

Keep in mind none of the other nations are eager to start a war with Gobbotopia (second page, panel three).

[mangamuscle]

Plus, I firmly believe that economic engagement is a perfect tool for motivating a change in behavior.

I have no doubt Cliffport might yet reconsider their stance on slavery, the Free Market is the only tried and true source of long term wealth.

[Teleporker]

Keep in mind none of the other nations are eager to start a war with Gobbotopia (second page, panel three).

Good call! I had totally forgotten about that one!

In other news, is this comic the first one where the roaches (or rather, roach) appear without saying anything at all?

Totally not my fault!

[multilis]

"I also consider freedom of speech to be a fundamental right"

The human in United Towns commonly look down on the kobalds in Clayna for banning certain topics of discussion, not having trials where accused can openly face accuser, and where judgments could never be questioned.

Meanwhile, if you surf the Link with your SeeVee, you'll notice that many LinkSites hosted in United Towns practice similar censorship of certain topics, and admins are judge and jury in secret just like Clayna, and no one is allowed to question their judgment publicly.

Kobalds in return say they have just as much right to censor their citizens access to LinkSites as local admins in United Towns censor their little sites. It is so much *easier* to censor whatever you like, play judge in secret, and never allow anyone to question your rulings.

***

on a side note, lets try to avoid talking about real world politics, as not allowed in the forum rules.

[Sijo]

Keep in mind none of the other nations are eager to start a war with Gobbotopia (second page, panel three).

This is exactly why I think Gobbotopia doesn't have any real approval at all- the other nations are afraid of going to war with it, but the moment Hinjo and his people return in force, they won't defend the Goblins' rights either. Cliffport might enjoy more slave trade freedom (pun intended) for now, but unless they're dumb they won't favor the nation with the Epic-Level Undead Sorcerer on top forever. I don't think anybody outside the city actually agrees the gobs have a right to their nation, no matter what RC claims (but then, he's talking to his own, beloved, not-too-smart people.)

[Hithros]

...I wasn't really impressed by this comic, but ah, well.
I was hoping for a bit of plot movement, but it does settle Redcloak's control over the place. Kinda.