No Sleep For You! (3.5)

[penbed400]

Are there any rules on what happens to a character if they do not sleep? I was planning on making this an issue in an upcoming adventure and I couldn't find any rules on it. Does anybody know of any please?

[arguskos]

Technically, nothing. There are no rules for it. Make something up that is thematically appropriate.

[Kylarra]

Technically, nothing. There are no rules for it. Make something up that is thematically appropriate.

Well, you don't get to prepare spells, for the most part.

[Temotei]

Well, you don't get to prepare spells, for the most part.

You only need to rest for eight hours. There's nothing on sleeping.

[Eldariel]

There's the condition "Fatigued" which seems appropriate enough.

[arguskos]

You only need to rest for eight hours. There's nothing on sleeping.

Dammit I hate RAW sometimes, because of stupid crap like this.

Silly RAW, being all incomplete on issues that players WILL think up, and aren't tough to implement.

[penbed400]

Thanks, umm well how about a character must make a Fortitude save DC 20 or become exhausted fatigued. The DC will go up by 5 every day of not sleeping. If a character is already fatigued they will become exhausted instead...does that sound good enough?

*EDITED*

[SethFahad]

There's the condition "Fatigued" which seems appropriate enough.

I'd second that. I'm allways using this house rule.

Listen, if he's insomniac, help the guy!
Why don't you hire a spellcaster to deep-slumber him??? Or you can knock him out with subdual, and let him rest. He will heal 1 point of nonleathal damage for every character level he has per hour...do the math and hit him HARD.

(just joking)

[Kylarra]

You only need to rest for eight hours. There's nothing on sleeping.

Well, I was inferring that in order to be "unable to sleep" you'd be in a situation where you're "unable to rest", but yes, strictly speaking, you don't need to "sleep".

[KnightOfV]

I wouldn't Fatigue 'em after just one night of no sleep, since Fatigue gives penalties to STR and DEX and keeps you from running, all signs of physical, rather than mental exhaustion. I would think the adrenalin rush of danger would keep you from being physically penalized in combat, and I know from real life you can run even after an all-nighter. You may feel like crap afterward but you can.

Personally, if they got even a few hours of rest I'd let it slide, and for staying up all night I'd give a -2 penalty to concentrate, spot and listen skills. Sounds about right from real life experience pulling all-nighters. If you really want to increase verisimilitude, have them pass a DC 10 Concentration check to stay awake if they aren't doing anything active (keeping watch, taking a break, riding a horse, etc.)

That was the solution I came up on the fly in my own campaign when it came up, and I liked the idea the more I thought about it- staying up all night seems like an 'average' task, (sometimes I can, sometimes I can't) hence the low DC, and concentration is the perfect skill. Tough characters with high CON and studious wizards with the skill maxed out have the best chance of passing. Increase the DC gradually as the day passes and see how long it takes before they literally pass out from mental exhaustion. Again, once they nap for a few hours, I'd take the penalties off.

[Optimystik]

And then you drown them so they can heal.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Lesser Restoration works wonders on Fatigue.

[Eric Tolle]

Effects of Sleep Deprivation

In other words:

Immediate:

• Reduced performance of memory and intelligence
• Reduced reaction speed
• blurred vision

Longer sleep deprivation:

• Microsleep
• hallucinations
• Short-term memory loss
• Paranoia
• Increased blood pressure
• Health/immune system impairment
• Increasingly reduced performance
• Death

[SethFahad]

Effects of Sleep Deprivation

In other words:

Immediate:

• Reduced performance of memory and intelligence
• Reduced reaction speed
• blurred vision

Longer sleep deprivation:

• Microsleep
• hallucinations
• Short-term memory loss
• Paranoia
• Increased blood pressure
• Health/immune system impairment
• Increasingly reduced performance
• Death

That is for ALOT of days without sleep.
So we have all kinds of ability damage/penalties.
First of all mental abilities like Int & Wis plus Cha. Then Dex & Str for physical penalties and last Con damage leading to death.

Brrrr..... I think I' m going to take a nap...

[Xenogears]

Don't make the rules too harsh or eventually the players will rewrite the rules to say: Everyone plays warforged.

[SethFahad]

Don't make the rules too harsh or eventually the players will rewrite the rules to say: Everyone plays warforged.

...or elf...

[Irreverent Fool]

My group has always played that a normal character can go for 24 hours without sleep, after which he is fatigued.

This has occasionally led to people using restoration spells to stay awake for extended periods, though we have all agreed that even this eventually takes some sort of mental toll on the character though such things have always been handled via RP rather than mechanics. In a party it's usually not an issue because you can always assume your characters switch out on taking watches during their sleep cycles.

If you don't want to fatigue them, just apply a generic penalty. A stacking penalty to spot, listen, search, and initiative seems fair without being mechanically limiting. If you feel like allowing a check to avoid it, make the penalties harsher.

obnoxious
sig

[Temotei]

...or elf...

Nobody plays elves.

[TheCountAlucard]

Nobody plays elves.

That's not true; besides, if the choices are between not having to worry about the GM's new houserule he got off the Internet, and having to worry about the GM's new houserule he got off the Internet, guess which one the players are going to take?

OHTHEFUMBLETABLES!!!

[Temotei]

That's not true; besides, if the choices are between not having to worry about the GM's new houserule he got off the Internet, and having to worry about the GM's new houserule he got off the Internet, guess which one the players are going to take?

OHTHEFUMBLETABLES!!!

Ring of sustenance? Types that don't need to sleep?

I'm never playing an elf. At least not this year.

[Tyrmatt]

I read it ages ago and now can never find it when someone brings this up, but it was a set of variant rules for spell casters that allowed them to still prepare spells without sleep but applied a set of random dice rolls that could interfere with the castings, occasionally in their benefit, often to their detriment the longer the sleep deprivation went on.

If someone can tell me where it was so I can tattoo it into my chest, Memento style, that would be nice.

[Kyrthain]

If the characters are at least 5th level, warblades would be fine.

I'm to awesome to be tired! IRON HEART SURGE!!!!!

[Eldariel]

I'm never playing an elf. At least not this year.

Racist. Yea, yea, joke, etc.


But yeah, Fortitude-saves are a good way to go about it. It's worth noting that not-sleeping reduces your physical capabilities too. I certainly never broke down mentally in the military, but moving gets a bit tough after 30 hours of march with full equipment (40kg).

And it's a fight not to fall asleep in the watch or even standing up; mind you, a fight every man can win, but a fight nevertheless. I think Fort-saves to stay awake should start at DC 10 like everything else and the Fatigued-penalty should apply to basically everything except encounters.

Alternatively, you could write a different form of Fatigued that's just -2 to everything per day of no sleep to represent the worse coordination (penalizes pretty much everything physical), awareness (penalizes pretty much everything mental) and swift thinking (everything).

[drengnikrafe]

Nobody plays elves.

At least, if not more than, 1/3rd of my characters are elves.

Back on topic, I allow characters to go 2 days with 4 hours of sleep a night without penalty. Each day after that takes a -1 penalty that stacks with itself. 2 hours in a night starts that penalty at -1 right away, and increases daily. No sleep gives you a -2 daily. Penalties are reduced by 4 per 8 hour sleep. If you sleep for 12 hours, it's reduced by 8. If you sleep for a whole day, it all goes away.

[Sinfire Titan]

Racist. Yea, yea, joke, etc.

Elves suck too hard to use. Play a Rilkan or Xeph. Or a Kobold. If you're going into Eternal Blade or something, then you can play a Half or Wild Elf. But the base Elf just isn't worth using.

[Eldariel]

Elves suck too hard to use. Play a Rilkan or Xeph. Or a Kobold. If you're going into Eternal Blade or something, then you can play a Half or Wild Elf. But the base Elf just isn't worth using.

What is this "base Elf" you speak of? Only elven races I know of are Gray Elves, Wild Elves, Painted Elves, Snow Elves, Wood Elves, Star Elves, Fire/Sun Elves, Lesser Drow, Desert Elves, Aquatic Elves, Arctic Elves, Ghost Elves & Winged Elves

[Sinfire Titan]

What is this "base Elf" you speak of? Only elven races I know of are Gray Elves, Wild Elves, Painted Elves, Snow Elves, Wood Elves, Star Elves, Fire/Sun Elves, Lesser Drow, Desert Elves, Aquatic Elves, Arctic Elves, Ghost Elves & Winged Elves

I think you're missing a couple hundred or so...

[Kaerou]

I would rule fatigue penalties / penalty on concentration checks myself.

[Dr.Epic]

I thought there was something about becoming fatigued or exhausted when you don't sleep.

[kyoten]

I'd say go with fatigue for the first day w/o any sleep, then exhausted on day two. Following that i'd say some kind of Fort save every hour to stay up with some sort of scaling DC. After all it is quite possible to stay up for two days straight though you'd definitely be exhausted. The trick would simply be for how long you can hold out.

Eight hours of sleep + one hour for every four hours past the first 24 hours. Would remedy this.