Possible Inevitable Conflict (3.5)

[AtwasAwamps]

(TLDR SUMMARY: How can a Barb6/ChampOfGwyn 1 beat a Fighter 4/Wiz 4 in single combat? See bottom for matchup details)

Before I continue to go on with this thread, I want to point out that I will be doing everything in my power to avoid the PVP situation that I feel will come about…it’s just that I have a feeling the issue will be forced.

Some folks may remember a thread I made about the fact that I was being asked to allow a player I did not want to have playing into my DnD 3.5 game. I chose not to let him play, in part because of his behavior in another DM’s game.

In this other game, I am a new player (just made a character for it) playing a Champion of Gwynharrawyf. This particular player is rolling with a Fighter 4/Wizard 4. He has already set himself up as an antagonist to my character (I wasn’t informed by the DM of exactly what kind of party this was and the majority of them are…less than good on the alignment scale, which is hard for my Exalted character to deal with…a quick DM chat revealed that he didn’t know what exaltedness entailed and so I’m now just playing him off as basic Chaotic Good-type). Asking to make a new character because of the obvious clash (nobody’s evil, but…nobody’s leaning towards good, either) was met with a bit of resistance, so I shrugged and started playing.

Within about two minutes of meeting one another, the Fighter/Wizard began antagonizing my character (whose actions up to that point had been to say hello and explain the burned in symbol of Gwynharrawyf on his shoulder), telling him he worshiped nothing worthwhile and that his faith was a joke, then calling him a weak stripling. When in response to something the character said (about ruthlessness, I think?) my character used detect evil, the Fighter/Wizard (after a successful spellcraft roll to identify it) leaned in and said “I’m not evil, boy…but I’m the closest you can get.”

So, this I can deal with, actually…it’s character joshing, and that’s fine. But it’s spilling out. Whenever I speak or roleplay, this player leans back in his seat and makes snoring noises. Note that I try very hard to keep my hammy tendencies in check and have talked to the other players to make sure I’m doing alright (they all think I’m just fine). He consistently cracks jokes about my sexual orientation (which isn’t a big deal, it’s just getting BORING) and other things of this nature. He did this as a DM and he appears to be doing it as a player, too. (As a side note, his antagonizing me is not a direct result of my restricting him from my game…he was told that my game was basically the late night game, which he won’t be playing in, and I didn’t even decide to not let him play till after this session.)

…Okay. So this is a really round-about way to say that this player has in the past used in-game attacks on PCs to deal with personal issues with other people. Sorry about the fol-de-rol. I will be attempting to talk to this person out of game first if things get REALLY bad, but what I’m looking for from the playgrounders is not advice on this…I can handle RL well enough…what I’m REALLY looking for is…

How does a Champion of Gwynharrawyf beat a fighter4/wizard4, if he pushes it to the point of PVP combat? I know his gear involves a bastard sword, shield, and enough armor to leave him with a 25% arcane spell failure chance, so he won’t be casting in battle…BUT, he also has a wand of hold person. I have a Mwork Greatsword, +1 Chainshirt, wacky gauntlets that add damage to crits (3 charges, 2d6 for one charge, 3d6 for two, 4d6 for three spent on a single hit), and nothing else particularly special. I’m built to take advantage of intimidate. I’m level 7, he’s level 8. I don’t know his spell selection, but in his own words, he “Doesn’t really cast spells in combat” and I’m sure that 25% failure chance has something to do with it. I do know he has a wand of hold person on him.

ADDITIONAL FACTS: I know this player fought another player in the campaign already, a pure fighter 8. He would have lost badly, but he used his wand of hold person. So he is pretty reliant on that wand, I’m willing to bet…

My stats:
16 str
16 dex (ioun stone)
15 con
11 Int
14 Wis
15 Cha

Feats: Knight of the Stars, Power Attack, Righteous Wrath, Imperious Command
Skill Tricks: Extreme Leap, Twisted Charge, Never Outnumbered

I’m assuming that I can rage and just beat him bloody into the floor with my increased strength and will save…level 4 wizardry doesn’t give access to the strongest of buffs, I mostly have to worry about his AC, which I bet will be rather high, negating my ability to power attack. However, I can also make him cower if my intimidate works on him, which will be quite the help…

Basically, I’m not sure what to do and could use some advice on fighting him. I don’t really want to lose if it comes to this, because he is a powergamer and I’d like him to eat some crow.

[tahu88810]

You're a barbarian. You make a good ubercharger.

He is a fighter, he is, by default, not all that great. He is a wizard, but he isn't full casting because of those four levels he wasted on fighter.

Tear him to shreds. 'nuff said.


Edit: And, might I ask...this guy sounds like a jerk, why do people play with him?

[Starbuck_II]

Disarm check/Sleight of Hand check? If you disarm him of his wand or steal his wand: he can't use it against you.

Quick note on Sleight of Hand: the spot check isn't a defense it just means they noticed. You only have to make a DC 15 check to succeed.

But I'd do disarm since I doubt you have SoH skill trained.

What exactly is he building toward? I know he can true Strike and flare without ASF but other than those he can't cast much.
He might have arcane Strike (sacrifice a spell slot for +X/d4 damage and +X to hit where X = spell slot level)


Why are you one level lower?

[sofawall]

Sundering the wand could help.

[Tavar]

The Will save on the wand should only be 14, so as long as you can rage you shouldn't be too bad, unless you get really unlucky.

You also have a much better build, from what I can see. Just Rage, fight with a Two Handed Weapon, and be in melee.

[AtwasAwamps]

Edit: And, might I ask...this guy sounds like a jerk, why do people play with him?

They like him. He's nice to them generally. And honestly, he's not really a bad guy, objectively. Just something about me seems to set him off (possibly because I tend to be fairly quiet and non-assertive until pushed) and he finds me an easy target.

And yeah, I'm wondering about what he's trying to get to, build-wise, which is why I posted here...I'm worried about what tricks he might have up his sleeve. Arcane strike might be in there, I hadn't thought about that. Hrm...thanks for the heads up.

There's also a chance I can just take a peek at his character sheet at some point. Though that's just mildly evil of me.

EDIT: I'm one level lower because they tend to start new players off a level lower in their games.

[Optimystik]

You only have one champ-level, so it won't help you much besides the Smite Evil. Rage and do that and he should crumple.

EDIT: When I came into this thread I thought it was about Maruts and Modrons having a cage match

[AtwasAwamps]

You only have one champ-level, so it won't help you much besides the Smite Evil. Rage and do that and he should crumple.

EDIT: When I came into this thread I thought it was about Maruts and Modrons having a cage match

To clarify: He's not evil. He's chaotic neutral. He's also seeking to become a shade for immortality.

Additionally, Maruts and Modrons having a cage match is awesome.

[sofawall]

Hmm. Using a wand provokes, doesn't it? The whole Glaive+armour spikes should let you get close and stop him from using it, assuming you are capable of disarming and/or sundering.

[Signmaker]

You're a barbarian, he's a half-wizard. Smash his magical gear so he becomes a 4th level fighter. Problem solved.

[Optimystik]

To clarify: He's not evil. He's chaotic neutral. He's also seeking to become a shade for immortality.

If he attacks you for no reason, safe money says he'll be smite-able at that point.

[AtwasAwamps]

If he attacks you for no reason, safe money says he'll be smite-able at that point.

Safe-money assumes that he won't bully the DM into not allowing that to happen. But good point and I'll make sure to point it out if this occurs.

[Grommen]

Also a question as to why the party and the DM is letting this dude get away with it. That aside, you should not have much trouble beating the snot out of him. You can pick the best time to attack, lets say right after he makes that final leap into truly evilness, or your standing right next to him when he does something rude.

Only problem is that smoking this chump will not solve your problems. He'll get sympathy from the rest of the people and the DM, either get his character revived or make a new one up. In both cases the dude will be gunning for you from that point on.

So you either walk away from the game, or learn to take it in hopes that eventually this dude will wear out his welcome with the rest of the group, or gets bored picking on you and moves on.

[tahu88810]

So you either walk away from the game, or learn to take it in hopes that eventually this dude will wear out his welcome with the rest of the group, or gets bored picking on you and moves on.

Or he rerolls as a druidzilla or wizard, and just slaughters every single one of this guy's incarnations.

[frogspawner]

Don't sink to this player's level. Have a new character (or two!) handy, for if he kills your barbarian, so his actions won't keep you out of the game for any time at all. Don't keep any stuff that he could loot from you and buff himself and gloat with later (like that Ioun Stone, nice though it is). Sell it all and get items you can be reasonably confident of using up in any fight against him (like potions, or something anti-Hold Person).

Beat him by role-playing. Your character is good guy, get well-known and liked by the locals. Conspicuous donation to the church most favoured by the local authorities. Exalted tendencies - so t shouldn't be hard! Find that PC fighter he fought before (or his grieving relatives?) and make friends with them. Save the lives of your fellow adventurers. In character, behave impeccably towards this oaf. (How long will anyone play with him when they see it's him not his character that's obnoxious?)

If he kills you, do so again with the next character. If he acts the same and attacks, maybe this one will get him. Or the next. You have an infinite supply. Relax, stay cool. But if you ever win he will hate it...

[Aharon]

@Tavar:
Unless it's a non-standard wand, it's DC is only 13 - the wands in the SRD use the lowest level possible, in this case, Clr 2.

@AtwasAwamps
If at all reconcilable with your character concept, I would try to be the one who attacks. Although the save from the wand is rather beatable, there's still a 30% chance of failing it while raging - 25% if you use the luck bonus from Knight of the Stars.

That sounds quite ok, but if I were your opponent, I would start the fight in a situation where I could fire the wand multiple times - starting at least 130 feet away from you, preferably in an area with difficult terrain and moving back after each shot. As you can't run and squares count as 2 squares for movement, the fastest you could reach him with double movements would be in the 6th round.

Your chance of making 5 saves is only ~12,5%.

It's less if he gets you at a time when you're not already raging: your chance of making the save in the first round, while not raging, is only 45%, 50% with the luck bonus.

But if you choose the time and place of your engagement, the plans that were already outlined should do the trick.

As was mentioned, Ftr 4/Wiz 4 isn't optimal, but you said he optimized, so he probably has Practiced Spellcaster to get a CL of 8. When he has you paralyzed, he might choose to kill you via damaging spells such as scorching ray - the paralyzation wears off after a maximum of 3 rounds, after all.

Another poster suggested Arcane Strike, unless he uses something like Illumnian or another trick, he doesn't have the 3rd level spells required for it.

[AtwasAwamps]

Don't sink to this player's level. Have a new character (or two!) handy, for if he kills your barbarian, so his actions won't keep you out of the game for any time at all. Don't keep any stuff that he could loot from you and buff himself and gloat with later (like that Ioun Stone, nice though it is). Sell it all and get items you can be reasonably confident of using up in any fight against him (like potions, or something anti-Hold Person).

Beat him by role-playing. Your character is good guy, get well-known and liked by the locals. Conspicuous donation to the church most favoured by the local authorities. Exalted tendencies - so t shouldn't be hard! Find that PC fighter he fought before (or his grieving relatives?) and make friends with them. Save the lives of your fellow adventurers. In character, behave impeccably towards this oaf. (How long will anyone play with him when they see it's him not his character that's obnoxious?)

If he kills you, do so again with the next character. If he acts the same and attacks, maybe this one will get him. Or the next. You have an infinite supply. Relax, stay cool. But if you ever win he will hate it...

As a side note, this is exactly what I intend on doing. I just don't intend to LOSE if I'm attacked. I won't take the first swing, but when I do swing, I'm just hoping it's a doozy.

@AtwasAwamps
If at all reconcilable with your character concept, I would try to be the one who attacks. Although the save from the wand is rather beatable, there's still a 30% chance of failing it while raging - 25% if you use the luck bonus from Knight of the Stars.

Only if his character commits an atrocious act in front of mine, and even then, I will be doing my best to maintain party solidarity. I will NOT be the aggressor in this case. I understand that puts me at a disadvantage. It also makes me not the bad guy.

[The Glyphstone]

So if he's friends with the DM, what are the odds that the DM will come down on his side against you and help rig the match/rules so that you lose?

If it's a fair fight, don't kill him. Leave him unconscious, then punish him by destroying all his equipment, preferably while he watches. Get him tied up, then wake him up and sunder each item he has one-by-one, including his spellbook and every spell component pouch he has. Melt down any money he's carrying, or throw it into a river/bottomless pit/donate to charity. Murder his familiar if he's got one. And all the while, give a 'To The Pain' speech about how if he doesn't stop screwing around with you, this will be considered merciful.

He's now paid a huge IC price for his dorkery, and maybe he'll get the message OOC too. If he complains, you can honestly say that you could have killed him, but played your Good alignment and spared his life. Intelligent players would know that the more merciful option at this point would be to kill him, but he won't.

[Tyndmyr]

It's a wizard/fighter. It's a horrible build. You should be able to plaster him with no special preparation.

[AtwasAwamps]

So if he's friends with the DM, what are the odds that the DM will come down on his side against you and help rig the match/rules so that you lose?

If it's a fair fight, don't kill him. Leave him unconscious, then punish him by destroying all his equipment, preferably while he watches. Get him tied up, then wake him up and sunder each item he has one-by-one, including his spellbook and every spell component pouch he has. Murder his familiar if he's got one. And all the while, give a 'To The Pain' speech about how if he doesn't stop screwing around with you, this will be considered merciful.

He's now paid a huge IC price for his dorkery, and maybe he'll get the message OOC too. If he complains, you can honestly say that you could have killed him, but played your Good alignment and spared his life.

I trust the DM...he's my friend too. He's known the other player longer, but he IS a good guy and a solid friend. The only issue is he might not be familiar with certain rules/rulings...which I am familiarizing myself with anyways.

And I have no intention of killing him unless forced to in some way. I do intend on sundering his spellbooks/pouches/etc. Not the wand. The wand I will give to the party sorc or favored soul.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Called shot to the balls.

[The Glyphstone]

I trust the DM...he's my friend too. He's known the other player longer, but he IS a good guy and a solid friend. The only issue is he might not be familiar with certain rules/rulings...which I am familiarizing myself with anyways.

And I have no intention of killing him unless forced to in some way. I do intend on sundering his spellbooks/pouches/etc. Not the wand. The wand I will give to the party sorc or favored soul.

Then yeah, hand over his wand to a caster you trust, and utterly wreck every single other possession he owns - spellbook, pouches, sword, armor, shield, and any magical gear he has. Make it clear that messing with you has consequences, but do it in way that both leaves him an option to change how he's acting, and gives you an out if he whines about how mean you are. It's the nuclear option of PvP combat (even Disjunction still leaves nonmagical doodads behind), but he deserves it.

EDIT: Would either of the mentioned casters support you if he attacks you? Even just a +Wisdom buff or a save-boosting aid would make a big difference, since the only weapon he has to threaten you is that wand.

[AtwasAwamps]

Then yeah, hand over his wand to a caster you trust, and utterly wreck every single other possession he owns - spellbook, pouches, sword, armor, shield, and any magical gear he has. Make it clear that messing with you has consequences, but do it in way that both leaves him an option to change how he's acting, and gives you an out if he whines about how mean you are. It's the nuclear option of PvP combat (even Disjunction still leaves nonmagical doodads behind), but he deserves it.

EDIT: Would either of the mentioned casters support you if he attacks you? Even just a +Wisdom buff or a save-boosting aid would make a big difference, since the only weapon he has to threaten you is that wand.

Favored Soul might, just because so far IC, my character's been very nice to me (and she is also fairly fond of me OOC). The Sorc might because IC he's vaguely the WizFighter's rival. But I'd prefer not to really rely on that. Still, it's a good point. This has basically boiled down to what I expected...that wand is my major threat.

[Aharon]

Well, we don't know that - it's just the impression you created with your first post:

I know this player fought another player in the campaign already, a pure fighter 8. He would have lost badly, but he used his wand of hold person. So he is pretty reliant on that wand, I’m willing to bet…

We don't know how this battle would have gone if the fighter hadn't failed his save. As most posters said, Ftr4/Wiz4 is a pretty bad combination, but it might still be optimised.
It would be helpful to know what sourcebooks are allowed - the more options, the more likely he can build something worthwhile even with that combination.
Also, what method of stat generation was used? Your stats don't look like Point Buy, so this guy may win simply because he has very good stats.

And mind you, the way your first post sounds, (chaotic neutral, as close to evil as possible), you will not be buffed, and you will not rage. So you have a 40%-45% chance of losing to the wand - unless you acquire some allday save boosters like a cloak of resistance, or level up before the fight occurs. If your opponent is smart, he knows that his wand will be less and less useful, and force the fight on you before either happens.

[AtwasAwamps]

Well, we don't know that - it's just the impression you created with your first post:



We don't know how this battle would have gone if the fighter hadn't failed his save. As most posters said, Ftr4/Wiz4 is a pretty bad combination, but it might still be optimised.
It would be helpful to know what sourcebooks are allowed - the more options, the more likely he can build something worthwhile even with that combination.
Also, what method of stat generation was used? Your stats don't look like Point Buy, so this guy may win simply because he has very good stats.

And mind you, the way your first post sounds, (chaotic neutral, as close to evil as possible), you will not be buffed, and you will not rage. So you have a 60% chance of losing to the wand - unless you acquire some allday save boosters like a cloak of resistance, or level up before the fight occurs. If your opponent is smart, he knows that his wand will be less and less useful, and force the fight on you before either happens.

I know my opponent THINKS he's smart. All books were allowed, so that's what I'm worried about. I'm not sure what a fighter 4/wizard 4 COULD DO, because the idea of splitting levels like that seems...silly, when all the possible options are available.

Stats were rolled. I know his current strength, with gear, is 22 (+5 gauntlets or something similar).

Unfortunately, that's thus far ALL I know. Note that only the f4/w4 said "I'm as close as possible"...the favored soul is NOT, the fighter is NOT (and bears a grudge)...the party plays itself neutral, but this guy is the one on the deep end.

Side note: I'm not sure why I wouldn't rage. Righteous Wrath transforms rage from "I will eat your heart!" to a righteous anger, something more along the lines of a divine fury, which would be perfectly in character for someone like my character to do under assault.

EDIT: The fight with the aforementioned Fighter PC was...bad for my current antagonist. It should be noted that the Fighter PC was played by the person with the most in-game experience and a player who is a closet optimizer. He doesn't reveal it, but he and I have chats about char-op fairly often. I'm not a genius and neither is he, but both of us are the only ones in the group who are REALLY familiar with the upper concepts...we just don't apply them for the sake of fairness.

This guy is...sort of the opposite. He's just not very GOOD at it.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I know my opponent THINKS he's smart.

It is obvious by his class choice that he isn't. Wait until he sleeps, pour oil on him, and light him on fire. Bonus points if you catch his spellbook and other equipment on fire as well.

[Aharon]

You won't rage because he will surprise you. Or is that below him? He takes his action to use the wand, you can only take the free action to rage on your own round.

[Lysander]

Here's how you win in 1 on 1 combat: Don't make it 1 on 1 combat.

Pull another party member that you trust aside and secretly mention your doubts about the wiz/fighter. Tell them you're not going to start anything, but if he attacks you would like their aid. Offer to watch their back as well.

[AtwasAwamps]

You won't rage because he will surprise you. Or is that below him? He takes his action to use the wand, you can only take the free action to rage on your own round.

Ohh, gotcha. Understood and good point.

Lysander: I'm hoping he leaves it long enough that my character can make an impression on the party...but if he doesn't, that's unlikely.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You have Imperious Command. What about stun-locking him with fear?