[3.5] appropriate CR for a dry lich

[jiriku]

The dry lich template (Sandstorm) is +5 LA and +3 CR. So by the book, a druid 5/walker in the waste 10 dry lich would be ECL 20 and CR 18.

However, strictly speaking, the template is a class feature of the 10th level of the walker in the waste PrC, not a separately earned and paid-for template. Thus, arguably, a druid 5/walker in the waste 10 would be ECL 15 and CR 15.

Considered a third way, it's widely understood that NPCs with class levels aren't really competitive with equivalent-CR monsters. Thus a party of four druid 5/walker in the waste characters would be EL 15, or individually about CR 11.

All the RAW contradictions aside, I am definitely going to use an NPC druid 5/walker in the waste 10 dry lich. What ECL and CR would you assign to such a creature?

[arguskos]

Considered a third way, it's widely understood that NPCs with class levels aren't really competitive with equivalent-CR monsters.

Everything else aside, are you really claiming an NPC 10 is not as scary as a CR 10 critter? Cause, uh, that's only true in some specific cases (melee NPC vs. caster critter). I've found that NPCs with class levels are pretty damn terrifying usually.

I mean, a Fighter 10 compared to a Fire Giant, and I'm more scared of the Fire Giant. But, make that a Cleric 10 instead? Or any caster? Or a Rogue? Or a BARD with minions? I'm afraid of the NPC more than the Giant.

[imperialspectre]

Any template added as a class feature should be treated as "free." There is no RAW answer one way or the other that I know of, but any other option is horribly unfair to a PC that takes that class or PrC.

In the case of walker in the waste, the PrC is pretty weak as is, particularly compared to what you would get as any 15th-level full caster. 8th-level spells, which you delay for two levels to be a WitW, can get you practically all of the benefits of being a dry lich anyway.

[KillianHawkeye]

The dry lich template (Sandstorm) is +5 LA and +3 CR. So by the book, a druid 5/walker in the waste dry lich would be ECL 20 and CR 18.

However, strictly speaking, the template is a class feature of the 10th level of the walker in the waste PrC, not a separately earned and paid-for template. Thus, arguably, a druid 5/walker in the waste 10 would be ECL 15 and CR 15.

The first part is correct. The sample Dry Lich on page 155 is a Cleric 5/Walker in the Waste 10 and is given a CR of 18. So it would seem that the ECL of such a character would be 20.

Considering what the Dry Lich template gives you (the Undead type, +5 nat armor, aura of despair, at-will Con draining attack, turn resistance, DR, fast healing, unholy toughness, and bonuses to Str, Wis, & Cha all beyond what you get from Walker in the Waste) the +5 LA isn't so ridiculous. Especially when compared to what a Lich gets for +4 LA.

[jiriku]

Everything else aside, are you really claiming an NPC 10 is not as scary as a CR 10 critter? Cause, uh, that's only true in some specific cases (melee NPC vs. caster critter). I've found that NPCs with class levels are pretty damn terrifying usually.

I mean, a Fighter 10 compared to a Fire Giant, and I'm more scared of the Fire Giant. But, make that a Cleric 10 instead? Or any caster? Or a Rogue? Or a BARD with minions? I'm afraid of the NPC more than the Giant.

It seems to me that you're saying a CL 10 caster NPC beats a CR 10 melee monster, while a CR 10 caster monster beats a CL 10 melee NPC. If so, then what you're really saying is that there's a Tier system of classes, and that Tier 1 spellcasting classes and the monsters that emulate them are potentially more powerful than Tier 5 melee classes and the monsters that emulate them.

Which is true.

My real conundrum here is that I'm just not sure how much XP to give my players if they kill the darn dry lich.

[absolmorph]

It seems to me that you're saying a CL 10 caster NPC beats a CR 10 melee monster, while a CR 10 caster monster beats a CL 10 melee NPC. If so, then what you're really saying is that there's a Tier system of classes, and that Tier 1 spellcasting classes and the monsters that emulate them are potentially more powerful than Tier 5 melee classes and the monsters that emulate them.

Which is true.

My real conundrum here is that I'm just not sure how much XP to give my players if they kill the darn dry lich.

I'd say give 'em at least half a level, if it's a major villain/fight. Maybe more, if they kill it while weaker than you expected (i.e. taking out a villain that's supposed to be recurring in the second of four planned encounters).

[arguskos]

It seems to me that you're saying a CL 10 caster NPC beats a CR 10 melee monster, while a CR 10 caster monster beats a CL 10 melee NPC. If so, then what you're really saying is that there's a Tier system of classes, and that Tier 1 spellcasting classes and the monsters that emulate them are potentially more powerful than Tier 5 melee classes and the monsters that emulate them.

Nah, I'm mostly saying that NPCs generally are more dangerous than monsters, since NPCs are more often built to be mechanically sound, and monsters are usually not. Now, assuming equal levels of effort go into each, then yes, monsters would probably outclass NPCs on a general level.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The first part is correct. The sample Dry Lich on page 155 is a Cleric 5/Walker in the Waste 10 and is given a CR of 18. So it would seem that the ECL of such a character would be 20.

CR and ECL are unrelated except concerning NPCs

Any template added as a class feature should be treated as "free."

This

And yes giving NPCs class levels is just asking for a TPK if done half decently.

[KillianHawkeye]

CR and ECL are unrelated except concerning NPCs

Um, hello? I was pointing out that the CR increase given by the template is accurate (at least according to the sample character), which therefore implies that the ECL increase given by the template is also accurate.

Considering that the only way to get the Dry Lich template is to take ten levels in Walker in the Waste, there doesn't seem much point in giving the template a Level Adjustment unless it's meant to be added on top of the class levels. As I pointed out earlier, the bonuses and abilities granted by the template significant enough that a +5 LA isn't completely out of line. It's better than the Lich template which is +4.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The first part is correct. The sample Dry Lich on page 155 is a Cleric 5/Walker in the Waste 10 and is given a CR of 18. So it would seem that the ECL of such a character would be 20.

Considering what the Dry Lich template gives you (the Undead type, +5 nat armor, aura of despair, at-will Con draining attack, turn resistance, DR, fast healing, unholy toughness, and bonuses to Str, Wis, & Cha all beyond what you get from Walker in the Waste) the +5 LA isn't so ridiculous. Especially when compared to what a Lich gets for +4 LA.

Sample characters are stupid, and usually wrong. The Template was bought and paid for by the 10 levels of WitW. Increasing the ECL and CR of it on top of those 10 levels is shorting the PrC. The cleanest example of this I can think of is Dragpn Disciple, which is spelled out as getting all the abilities of the Half-Dragon without ever mentioning LA or CR.

[Harperfan7]

What is a "walker in the waste"?

[KillianHawkeye]

Sample characters are stupid, and usually wrong. The Template was bought and paid for by the 10 levels of WitW. Increasing the ECL and CR of it on top of those 10 levels is shorting the PrC. The cleanest example of this I can think of is Dragpn Disciple, which is spelled out as getting all the abilities of the Half-Dragon without ever mentioning LA or CR.

I agree that mathematical mistakes and other errors and omissions are prevalent in WotC sample character stat blocks, but it's really all we have to go on in this case. Note that the Dragon Disciple was designed as an alternative entry to the preexisting Half-Dragon template, whereas the Dry Lich template seems to have been designed to be exclusively accessed by completing Walker in the Waste. No offense, but I find your stance to be based less upon the existing evidence and more upon wishful thinking.

What is a "walker in the waste"?

Walker in the Waste is a prestige class from the book Sandstorm (pages 89-94). Upon reaching level 10 in the class, you gain the Dry Lich template found in the same book.

[jiriku]

Nah, I'm mostly saying that NPCs generally are more dangerous than monsters, since NPCs are more often built to be mechanically sound, and monsters are usually not. Now, assuming equal levels of effort go into each, then yes, monsters would probably outclass NPCs on a general level.

You have a good point. For the purpose of this thread, let's use the monsters and NPC villains found in my campaign.

Now, about them monsters.... I am the best optimizer in my play group, and I never use stock MM opponents unless they're astonishingly well-built. I advance monster HD, reselect feat and skill choices to synergize with the monster's inherent strengths or shore up weak spots, and generally ensure that all opponents have appropriate AC, saves, attack bonus bonuses, and offensive save DCs for their level. Sometimes I use simple humanoids as classed NPCs, but just as often I'll add class levels onto a stronger monster, such as tomb mote (LM) swordsage, a mindflayer cleric, or a frost giant warblade. I always choose levels in classes that synergize extremely well with the monster's intended role, and shop all the books for useful alternate class features.

My personal experience has been that humanoids with class levels generally hit pretty accurately and deal great damage (and of course they make great spellcasters), but have poor AC, saves, and hit point totals for their CR unless I load them up with more magical items than I'm comfortable rewarding as loot.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I agree that mathematical mistakes and other errors and omissions are prevalent in WotC sample character stat blocks, but it's really all we have to go on in this case. Note that the Dragon Disciple was designed as an alternative entry to the preexisting Half-Dragon template, whereas the Dry Lich template seems to have been designed to be exclusively accessed by completing Walker in the Waste. No offense, but I find your stance to be based less upon the existing evidence and more upon wishful thinking.

"Dragon Disciple is an alternative method of entry to a template via class levels, WitW grants a template via class levels" is your argument, and I'm the one who's stretching? Yes, the template was made with WitW in mind, but you know that someone out there has applied it to a hippo by this point. The CR and LA are for if someone ignores the rules.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Dragon Disciple is an alternative method of entry to a template via class levels, WitW grants a template via class levels" is your argument, and I'm the one who's stretching?

That is obviously not the entirety of my argument. I was simply noting the difference between the relationships of the various classes and templates. The difference between Dragon Disciple and Walker in the Waste is that Dragon Disciple is a transformative class while Walker in the Waste isn't. By that, I mean that Dragon Disciple grants the Half-Dragon template gradually over its progression. Similarly, the Dread Necromancer class gradually grants the abilities of a Lich until finally you fully become one.

Walker in the Waste, on the other hand, has abilities which have nothing to do with the Dry Lich template. Gaining the template happens all at once at some point after you reach level 10 (whenever you can get another Dry Lich to do the ceremony) and grants an entirely different set of abilities than those gained as class features from Walker in the Waste. It is for these reasons (the fact that the template is added on instead of gradually gained, and its abilities are independant from abilities of the class) that I say that the Dry Lich template, with all its bonuses AND penalties, is added seperately to the character which completes the Walker in the Waste prestige class.



But hey, if you want to give away 5 ECL for free in your games, I won't stop you. Feel free. Personally, I don't think WitW is a weak class. It's not OP, but it isn't weak either. It gets 8/10 spellcasting advancement, some SLA, a scaling touch attack, environmental protection, the ability to create a few unique creatures, plus singular access to a pretty powerful template. And it gets you there sooner than Dread Necromancer gets to Lich. Personally, I think the LA isn't undeserved. But go ahead and do what you want. I'm not gonna argue about it any more. Anybody who reads this thread has enough information to make up their own minds, so I'll leave them to do so.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Warning this is resolution of a conflicting RAW. By RAW the class and its dry-lich silliness has the possibility to conflict very very badly (like the dragon disciple but in a different way)

Um, hello? I was pointing out that the CR increase given by the template is accurate (at least according to the sample character), which therefore implies that the ECL increase given by the template is also accurate.

Um hello?

it does not therefore imply. Name the rule that tells me this and I'll show you that it does not pertain to PCs. That was my only point.

For NPCs (like I think the OP wants) there is no problem because NPCs really aren't supposed to take PC PrCs much less full casting ones (too arena-ish not monster-ish enough).

Sample characters are stupid, and usually wrong.

Ya I didn't mention this. I was after all being nicer than that hawk guy. But your right.

the only way to get the Dry Lich template is to take ten levels in Walker in the Waste, there doesn't seem much point in giving the template a Level Adjustment

Um WHAT?

"Some templates can be added to creatures anytime. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates" + "Dry lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature"

there ritual's use of the WitW10 only says that they must undergo the right (aka all WitW10's are dry liches). The mechanical part only is the CWI, CL14 and 20k.

If you stick to "9th level Walker in the Waste" NOT "Walker in the Waste 9" then that means would must be atleast ECL9 and a Walker in the Waste (1 class level will suffice).

But remember the whole WitW10's must all undergo the rite? Well what happens if you don't have the money. AND you don't have the caster level. Getting in at ECL2 or 3 is easy RAW. This means that you must but you can't leading to a contradiction.

Ergo WitW 10 must give the dry lich template for free. RAW is ambiguous but its the only way that makes sense.

/thread

[Splendor]

Just because a WitW become a dry lich at 10th level does not mean there isn't another way to do it.

Read the Dry lich entry. It talks about how a WitW becomes a dry lich, no where does it say that you have to take 10 level in WitW to become one.

"Dry lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required canopic jars and undergo the Sere Rite (see below).

Can be added to any creature that undergoes the Sere Rite.

The Sere Rite
To become a dry lich, a walker in the waste who has reached 10th level in that prestige class must undergo the Sere Rite. This ritual requires the participation of at least one other dry lich, and the prospective dry lich must also craft a set of five canopic jars in which to preserve its internal organs.

"To become a dry lich, a walker in the wastes"... must do this stuff. A non WitW just has to do the ritual with requires the participation of another dry lich and some jars.

I think taking the creatures CR (18) and subtracting its class levels (15) is a good way to find out what the CR would be on a Dry lich.

[jiriku]

So, this begs a question: assuming equal levels of optimization for both, is a CR18 walker in the waste druid with CL15 and access to 8th level spells equivalent in threat to a CR18 human druid with CL 18 and access to 9th level spells?

[Milskidasith]

So, this begs a question: assuming equal levels of optimization for both, is a CR18 walker in the waste druid with CL15 and access to 8th level spells equivalent in threat to a CR18 human druid with CL 18 and access to 9th level spells?

Level 18 druid wins. Better animal companion, higher caster level, 9th levels. Undead immunities and stat boosts to stats you don't use while wildshaping (Str and con) and a boost to wisdom do not make up for that. Not only that, but if you make a WitW get +5 LA, the class goes from 8/10 casting to 8/15 casting, which is... absurdly weak. Like, "I wouldn't want 8/15 casting on an incantatrix" weak.

[jiriku]

How about if we compare cleric vs. cleric? The dry lich cleric has fewer level-dependent class features to lose, and without wildshape, gets more benefit from the stat boosts.

[Milskidasith]

How about if we compare cleric vs. cleric? The dry lich cleric has fewer level-dependent class features to lose, and without wildshape, gets more benefit from the stat boosts.

9th. Levels. If you don't have them, you are never going to beat somebody with them.*

*exaggeration; SoD's are quite easy to pull off at any level if you know the enemies defenses, but the guy with ninth levels has the odds stacked in his favor. Especially since ninth levels for clerics means that you get fun spontaneous casting with Miracle; even if you don't use the slots for anything but that and a domain spell, getting to use any 8th level spell or lower you could need on the fly is nice.