[ToB]Monsters as martial initiators

[elliott20]

As part of the Age of Warriors project (look in my sig for those of you who are curious), one of the ideas I was toying with was to get some of the vets here to help put together a guide on creating/using monsters with martial initiator powers. We've already seen some great homebrew monsters that have this and they look fantastic.

The point of this thread is for people to discuss how you can modify existing monsters within the MM to the same effect, some guidelines on how to do so, rules surrounding it such as CR modification, and so on.

So, with that in mind, here some basic concepts I was thinking about.

Somebody else wrote up a guide for GMs on how to run monsters and what not. One of the key things he said there is that one of the good ways you can modify a monster's feat list is to give them the martial study feat in place of an existing feat to give them some more firepower. This is a great concept, but I think this idea deserves more exploration.

The most pertinent questions in my mind are:

1. What kind of maneuvers/stances would fit best with what type of monster
2. How do you use them in combat
3. How does this modify their GM related stats like CR and such?

For humanoid like monsters, this would be a rather trivial thing, since you would basically treat them like any other martial initiate with maybe some additional synergies to go around.

But what happens when you want to say, give an awaken boar martial maneuvers? i.e. give the boar stone dragon maneuvers to use along with it's gore attack makes it a pretty interesting challenge.

So, what do you guys think of this idea?

[Zom B]

Let me just say I misread the title of this thread and got a mental image of an orc stopping in the middle of combat to ask for a player's hand in marriage.

I've always been a supporter of monsters whose tactics go beyond "see if we can make them fall down in a pool of our blood while we build a wall around them with our dead". I'd never considered using ToB on them, though.

[Sereg]

Definately a good idea. I do not feel qualified to contribute though.

[elliott20]

a lot of this will really become a matter of optimizing. Maybe we should bring this topic out to the general D&D discussion and ask the posters there, since this is strictly speaking, not as much of a homebrew anymore.

[Drolyt]

You mean giving them Martial Study as a bonus feat? If they just take the feat normally it shouldn't adjust their CR at all, it's the same as any other feat. On the other hand, you could give a monster maneuvers as if they were a crusader/swordsage/warblade of their CR, and that might warrant a slight CR increase. On the other hand there is such a thing as an action economy, and it also depends on how much a monster benefits from the addition. So, as a general rule of thumb, I'd say the martial study feat doesn't warrant a CR increase, but giving a monster maneuvers as a warblade of their (newly adjusted) CR should increase their CR by about 2, or at least that's what I would think. Edit: For example I would imagine an Ogre (normally CR 3) capable of using warblade maneuvers as a 5th level warblade would be about CR 5.

[elliott20]

Yeah, but then by that point it's basically the same thing as stacking class levels on a monster, so I guess we can always just calculated THAT way. Of course, getting those rules straight between LA, ECL, CR is another story all together.

[Drolyt]

Yeah, but then by that point it's basically the same thing as stacking class levels on a monster, so I guess we can always just calculated THAT way. Of course, getting those rules straight between LA, ECL, CR is another story all together.

Hmm, how do monsters work with IL if you do it that way? I guess you could say their initiator level is half their HD plus their levels in initiator classes, to a max of their CR. In that case if their HD is enough to give them initiator level = CR then a martial adept class is an associated class level, otherwise it is non-associated. Anyways like I said if they just take the feat no CR adjustment is really necessary.

[elliott20]

Yeah I suppose.

It's just that some feats are so much better than others. But of course, if we are going to adjust CR simply because of bad feat choice, an NPC fighter would be getting CRs all over the place instead of just being based on their level. So yeah, I agree.

So the next question is... WHAT should monsters pick?

[Drolyt]

Yeah I suppose.

It's just that some feats are so much better than others. But of course, if we are going to adjust CR simply because of bad feat choice, an NPC fighter would be getting CRs all over the place instead of just being based on their level. So yeah, I agree.

So the next question is... WHAT should monsters pick?

Most monsters are more straightforward if you just give them big damaging maneuvers.

[DracoDei]

Yes, but that gets rather boring after a while, wouldn't you say?

[Drolyt]

Yes, but that gets rather boring after a while, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps, but making DMing easier is never a bad thing. At any rate different maneuvers are suitable for different monsters. I'm now tempted to make a prestige class for dragons like the ones in the Draconomicon, except it will grant maneuvers.

[Glimbur]

It's interesting to give them things to do with their Swift action, like Boosts or Sudden Leap. Maneuverability things, for example the Shadow Hand teleports, can also be useful.

But honestly, the best way for an ogre to enter the room is by Mountain Hammering the door.

[Mulletmanalive]

Oddly enough, my thoughts on the matter vary. Part of this is because, while it makes sense that monsters can't produce the same effect regularly, the idea of them taking a moment to get their head together is altogether even sillier.

If anything, I'd rule that monsters use one of the following:

• The Crusader recharge system, meaning that they cycle through abilities somewhat randomly. Certainly suits animal intelligence and instinct...
• One action every [insert time period], probably the 1d4 of a breath weapon. I used this with my modified initiator system and it worked well enough with characters [see A Question of Tome]. In fact, i'm willing to contribute those feats to the book if they would help for monsters.
• Some kind of tiered ability use like I used on the Bowback Monkupine [one to three manoeuvres on a tier, the use of one shunts you to the next tier, each beyond the first having a stance connected to it, which in turn contains a new set of one to three manouvres]

The Martial Study solution is simple but runs slap into the problem that the three monsters in the TOB itself had: they're supposed to be innate martial terrors and yet they have sod all manoeuvres and can only use them once!

A secondary concern that's worth spending a moment on is what kinds of natural weapon match with which kinds of discipline weapons? I can see TOM Deadly Dancers pulling off Diamond Mind or Iron Heart manoeuvres but i can't see a boar managing them [aside from maybe the disarmy, trippy IH ones using its tusks...].

[hamishspence]

What about the Setting Sun ones? A well timed Ballista throw, for example- using the horns to send an enemy flying back into his allies with great force.

[Eldan]

It would very much depend on the monster, I'd think. And the more intelligent the critter, the more tactical the maneuvers. A shadow hand pixie assassin? Pretty terrifying, if done right, I'd assume.

[Mulletmanalive]

I was really thinking in terms of non-humanoid creatures: pixies are humanoid, albiet winged and are thus not an issue, simply becoming a host for class levels.

Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and White Raven aren't really problematic as they're relatively simple to think about, with Setting Sun being solid enough to be imaginable.

Mountain Hammer can function with anything that relies on brute force.

The ones that cause issues are Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, which are based on skill at arms, usually with pointy weapons. That said, IH can be used fairly simply as it's mostly utilitarian [stances non-withstanding] and DM isn't really something most monsters are capable of because it requires Concentration for the most part [bit difficult to imagine on a non-humanoid, non-aberration]

No real comment on Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind. I'm sure they could find niches but both involve channelling stuff. Fire elementals creatures and celestials aside, i can't seem all that much call for them.

[hamishspence]

A pack of White Raven wolves might be pretty alarming.

[Eldan]

True... but then I doubt that normal wolves would be able to study maneuvers. Winter wolves, or worgs, on the other hand...

For Diamond Mind, I could well see several outsiders being interested in the style. Some Yugoloth are big on the entire mind over matter thing, and I can imagine the Modrons being all over it.

Also, Desert Wind is basically perfect for the Firre Eladrin.

[hamishspence]

i can't see a boar managing them [aside from maybe the disarmy, trippy IH ones using its tusks...].

Main reason I mentioned it was this.

The notion of an exceptionally legendary wild boar with Setting Sun maneuvers, or wolf pack with White Raven manuevers, could be a good way to alarm the PCs when one or two of the manuevers are used.

It would be a bit like spell-like abilities, but for manuevers- they aren't very intelligent, they just "have a knack" so to speak.

For example, if the setting was medieval Europe, the Wolf with the manuevers, would be a Big-Name wolf, say, the dreaded Beast Of Gevaudan.

[Mulletmanalive]

True... but then I doubt that normal wolves would be able to study maneuvers. Winter wolves, or worgs, on the other hand...

For Diamond Mind, I could well see several outsiders being interested in the style. Some Yugoloth are big on the entire mind over matter thing, and I can imagine the Modrons being all over it.

Also, Desert Wind is basically perfect for the Firre Eladrin.

I believe the point of this discussion was about monsters using, rather than studying, manoeuvres. Anything that has two feet, two hands and a head, plus an intelligence bigger than 3 can successfully study as a martial class and no comment needs to be made about it.

Where things are actually interesting for the GM is including such abilities as part of the abilities of beasts, tentacular horrors and serpantine menaces.

Yes, Hamish, that would be pretty frightening. It has a certain merit, given how dangerous canines are in real life, it'd be interesting to see pack tactics be actually grizzly, probably with a smart alpha in charge.

Wouldn't the following be more interesting to run as a GM?

• Tigers that actually use Tiger Claw techniques
• A stone eating Bulette using Stone Dragon
• Advanced Chokers with Shadow Hand and Setting Sun
• A flame maned fire elemental beast Lion using Desert Wind
• A tainted Otugyh with Far Realm
• Chuuls with Ocean Soul/the other one
• A clan of martial mindflayers with most of their psionics swapped out for a crusader progression of Diamond Mind
• A white pelted alpha in a wolf pack who's bays count as White Raven manoeuvres

Just a few off the top of my head...

P.S. Elliot? If i ask nicely, can the Bow-back and the Mountain Eater be put on the list of critters or were they caboshed while i wasn't paying attention? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134487

[hamishspence]

This list sums it up pretty well.

Not everybody may like a ToB-heavy campaign, but the notion definitely stirs the imagination.

[Mulletmanalive]

Probably a safe bet that anyone reading this section of Age of Warriors does though...

[Eldan]

Ah. Sorry then, I seem to be a little slow today.

Let's see...

The Tiger Claw Tiger just makes sense.
A giant turtle with defensive maneuvers?
The legendary Chtonic Serpent Kraken?
A bird of prey, say an eagle, with grappling maneuvers could work pretty well. Giant Eagle if you want to use it against PCs.

[hamishspence]

Even if only the leader of a pack is a high level creature with White Raven maneuvers, it can still make the low level ones much more useful.

The Unholy Scion template from Heroes of Horror can be applied to animals and humanoids, is very similar to half-fiend (but with no minimum Int restriction, and no bat-wings- creature is almost indistinguishable from base. It also boosts Int massively)

An Unholy Scion at the head of a group- especially a group of Small creatures with the Swarmfighting feat (allowing 3 to occupy the same square) and a lot of levels of Warblade (White Raven speciality) could exploit the high level powers very well.

Maybe the discipline could be named in the first place for the exploits of an especially savage flock of ravens, lead by an Unholy Scion raven with white feathers?

[Oslecamo]

If you just consider that racial HD count for half initiator level, just give the monsters ToB levels and go to town. From my experience it works pretty well and it sure suprises the players.

I don't see any need to link certain kinds of monsters to certain kind of maneuvers. A tiger teleporting or a spider bursting in flames is all fine and dandy in the crazy world of D&D.

[Mulletmanalive]

Key point here is that they're all nifty ideas but in cases where it doesn't make sense to just slap character levels on the beast, we could do with a nice fallback recharge method for the manoeuvres. Something that makes them about as powerful as spell-like abilities.

I'd suggest either a plug and play table with a set arrangement of things on it [derived in some mutually agreeable manner] or a distinct refreshment method [i'm favouring spending a round out of combat, without attacking at range] for monsters to refresh their stuff...

[elliott20]

Mulletmanalive, they certainly should have made it in. I think the only reason they didnt was because I haven't updated the main archive post in like... forever.

Hey, just to make sure I don't forget, or at least I know where to find it when I get around to it, you can always just drop them into the archive thread in my sig.

[hamishspence]

So- does my suggested possible origin for the name of White Raven for that discipline seem interesting? or a bit silly?

[Mulletmanalive]

i think it's a fine idea; i just fundamentally dislike the Warblade so i'd prefer to see it have a unique regeneration method or use crusader levels.

In this case, i feel a little more justified as a] tiny creatures with too many hp seem silly, b] i can't really see a raven strategist flourishing [an issue with the warblade] and c] its non-strike attacks are more or less pointless so it doesn't serve it to remain in combat to regenerate with a standard attack.

Is there a particular reason why you've taken to unholy scion? I've heard this before but i've never really gotten a "bury them in corpses" vibe from White Raven...

[hamishspence]

Mostly because it produces a very high Int on an ordinary animal. And it doesn't much affect the creature's appearance- usually something subtle like eye colour, or skin colour, rather than horns, spikes, bat wings, etc.

Though Awakened Animal could work, as well.

The highest level White Raven powers enable an enormous quantity of creatures to attack the target at once, gain a bonus to hit for every one that's attacking, and a big bonus to damage.

Result- if the target is large enough, you can swarm it from all sides with so many creatures (with them all being certain to hit) that within a round or so, the creature is down.

Though I'd probably go with something slightly bigger- Small birds + Swarmfighting, rather than Tiny birds- maybe advanced ravens?

It doesn't have to be a warblade per se- but it does need high level warblade-type powers.