better version of dodge?

[Mystic Muse]

I remember somebody mentioning there was a better feat that counts for dodge for class requirements and such. They mentioned desert wind dodge and then one other one but I can't remember the named. The latter is the one I'm looking for.

[KellKheraptis]

If it's based on movement, that's Expeditious Dodge. If it was an Incarnum feat, there's one there too that counts as Dodge. There's also Psionic Dodge.

I wanna say it was Cobalt Dodge, for Incarnum (some kind of blue color theme)?

[Temotei]

I remember somebody mentioning there was a better feat that counts for dodge for class requirements and such. They mentioned desert wind dodge and then one other one but I can't remember the named. The latter is the one I'm looking for.

Expeditious Dodge?

I'll probably get ninja'd as I wait for the sixty seconds to end.

...gah! Ninja'd.

[Grumman]

Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild is the main one, if you've got a good move speed. Apart from that, there's an Incarnum dodge feat and Desert Wind Dodge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Specifically:
Midnight Dodge. 1 essentia, and essentia can add to your AC vs one opp. So it's Dodge, but better in every way.
Expeditious Dodge: +2 dodge to AC vs everyone when you move 40' in a round. Better for certain builds(generally, all builds that want dodge)
Desert Wind Dodge: +1 AC, +1 Fire damage with certain weapons, as long as you move 10'. Again, if you want Dodge, this is better.

[Mystic Muse]

Midnight dodge from magic of incarnum was the feat. unfortunately it doesn't work for my character. Expeditious dodge or desert wind dodge might work.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Midnight dodge from magic of incarnum was the feat. unfortunately it doesn't work for my character. Expeditious dodge or desert wind dodge might work.

Why do you have less than 13 Con(I assume anyone who wants Dodge has 13 Dex)? Desert Wind Dodge is easier to activate, and the weapons aren't required for the AC, just the damage(though there's a chance you'll be using them anyways). Expeditious can be chancy.

[Temotei]

I haven't read Expeditious Dodge in a while, but if I remember right, charging with it would basically negate the penalty to AC from charging, if that's what you want.

[Mystic Muse]

Do Warblade/Swordsages get essentia? because otherwise Midnight dodge doesn't really help me.with the 1 point you get with the feat it's not really better than dodge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Do Warblade/Swordsages get essentia? because otherwise Midnight dodge doesn't really help me.with the 1 point you get with the feat it's not really better than dodge.

No, but there are other sources(and uses) of essentia.

[Mystic Muse]

No, but there are other sources(and uses) of essentia.

Care to name a few? I'd prefer to not have to use a whole bunch of feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not hugely up on Incarnum, since the book is rather complicated, but there's a human subrace that gets 1 essentia instead of the skills, there's an incarnum version of toughness and a bunch of similar prerequisite feats, and of course taking an Incarnum class. Really, I don't know the book well enough to be more specific.

[Mystic Muse]

ah. Unfortunately this character is already level 8 and about to be level 9. I was just wondering if there was a better alternative to dodge before I go into master of the nine. Unfortunately you have to take your class level first and then you feat. Or so I've been told.

[PhoenixRivers]

Certain races (such as Azurin) get a point of essentia for free. Other Incarnum feats can grant extra points of essentia, as well. I believe you can have up to 2 points at level 1, with a feat and azurin. That would still leave you with a feat, and your class. Take Midnight Dodge, and you start with a +2 base. Now, you'd have to use the second feat for Improved Essentia Capacity (to allow you to put 2 points in at level 1), but if you're starting at a higher level, just do whatever with the other feat, and wait for character level to allow you to put 2 in. Of course, if you take additional +essentia feats, you'd have to wait until you could put all your points in.

[Sinfire Titan]

Care to name a few? I'd prefer to not have to use a whole bunch of feats.

Azurins and Dusklings both get a bonus point of Essentia. Duskling is also able to put that to good use by enhancing their Base Land Speed at will. Ok option, and opens up Cobalt Power for a Warblade (stacks with Stone Power).

An Essentia Helm (AKA Helm of Essentia) temporarily maxes out the Essentia of one feat, soulmeld, spell, or class feature for a set duration (typically long enough for an entire encounter) a certain number of times/day. These are cheap items and can be swapped out when you run out of daily. Two of these and you'll be guaranteed a maxed out Midnight Dodge every encounter (to a maximum of 6 or so encounters/day). Swift action to use. Best method.

Psycarnum Infusion acts like an Essentia Helm, but requires your Psionic Focus instead of a daily use limit. Not practical unless you can focus as a Swift action AND have an additional Swift action every turn.

[Nate the Snake]

ah. Unfortunately this character is already level 8 and about to be level 9. I was just wondering if there was a better alternative to dodge before I go into master of the nine.

Since you're going into Master of Nine, take Desert Wind Dodge. It's more thematically appropriate, and it's in the same book.

Unfortunately you have to take your class level first and then you feat. Or so I've been told.

I'm pretty sure that you can take feats and levels in whatever order is most beneficial to you, as long as you don't use the level and the feat to qualify for each other. So you can take (Desert Wind) Dodge as your 9th level feat to take Mo9 as your 9th level, unless your DM is the one who told you otherwise.

There's also Psionic Dodge.

Psionic Dodge doesn't count as Dodge, it requires Dodge.

[Draz74]

I'm pretty sure that you can take feats and levels in whatever order is most beneficial to you, as long as you don't use the level and the feat to qualify for each other. So you can take (Desert Wind) Dodge as your 9th level feat to take Mo9 as your 9th level, unless your DM is the one who told you otherwise.

No. You can pick feats and bonus feats and, IIRC, skill ranks in any order; but you must pick class levels before you pick any of those things.

Otherwise, there would be all kinds of shenanigans with entering a PrC, using that PrC's own class skill list to meet skill-based prerequisites for entering that PrC.

[Rixx]

Pathfinder Dodge gives you a constant +1 Dodge bonus to AC against all opponents all the time, which is much easier to keep track of.

[Yuki Akuma]

No. You can pick feats and bonus feats and, IIRC, skill ranks in any order; but you must pick class levels before you pick any of those things.

No, it's class, skills, then feats. Because feats that require x ranks in a skill are meant to be available the level you get those ranks, and classes that require x ranks in a skill are meant to come the level after you get those ranks.

There is actually a set order to levelling up, and you don't get to pick and choose which goes where.

[Nate the Snake]

No. You can pick feats and bonus feats and, IIRC, skill ranks in any order; but you must pick class levels before you pick any of those things.

I swear that I've read that you can take a PrC level and its prerequisite feat at the same time. I don't remember the source, but I'm sure it's there.

Compare a ranger 5/beastmaster 1 who takes Skill Focus (Handle Animal) as his 6th level feat and a fighter 2/cleric 1 who takes Scribe Scroll as his 3rd level feat. Both meet all prerequisites involved, but one takes the feat before the level and the other takes the level before the feat.

Otherwise, there would be all kinds of shenanigans with entering a PrC, using that PrC's own class skill list to meet skill-based prerequisites for entering that PrC.

I'm pretty sure that you can take feats and levels in whatever order is most beneficial to you, as long as you don't use the level and the feat to qualify for each other.

I probably should have said "prerequisites" instead of "feat." You can't take the PrC level at all until you have the skill-based prerequisites, so either way those shenanigans don't work.

If my example ranger 5 only has 7 ranks in Handle Animal, he can't take the beastmaster level because he doesn't qualify for it. By the time he uses his 6th level skill points to buy another rank, he still can't take the beastmaster level because he already took another ranger level to get the skill points he needed.

Basically, levels come before skills, but otherwise the order doesn't matter.

[Aldizog]

No, it's class, skills, then feats. Because feats that require x ranks in a skill are meant to be available the level you get those ranks, and classes that require x ranks in a skill are meant to come the level after you get those ranks.

There is actually a set order to levelling up, and you don't get to pick and choose which goes where.

I think you can take the feat, but not skills, required for a PrC at the same time as the first level in that PrC. Dirgesinger springs to mind. The PrC requires the feat Requiem. Requiem requires 8 ranks in Perform. The sample character is Brd5/Dirgesinger2, which means that at 6th he simultaneously took his first level in the PrC as well as the feat required for the PrC.

Unless WotC made a mistake with a sample character. Which I understand has happened on occasion.

[Sinfire Titan]

Unless WotC made a mistake with a sample character. Which I understand has happened on occasion.

Try "In every printed splatbook".

[tyckspoon]

I think you can take the feat, but not skills, required for a PrC at the same time as the first level in that PrC. Dirgesinger springs to mind. The PrC requires the feat Requiem. Requiem requires 8 ranks in Perform. The sample character is Brd5/Dirgesinger2, which means that at 6th he simultaneously took his first level in the PrC as well as the feat required for the PrC.

Unless WotC made a mistake with a sample character. Which I understand has happened on occasion.

They made a mistake. Feats absolutely do not come before level selection. The order is class-BAB-Base saves-ability score increase-hp-skills-feat-spells-class features; it's on page 58 of the PHB if you want to check yourself. Usually that exact order isn't too important, but it is the basis for why you can take a feat on the same level that you attain its prerequisites. It also means that you can't use class bonus feats to qualify for a general feat selection on the same level.. but you can use a general feat choice to qualify for a particular class-granted bonus, if necessary (this may sometimes be relevant for Fighters. Most other classes won't notice any difference.)

[Yuki Akuma]

It also means that you can take spells that require a certain feat (Incarnum spells... and that's probably it) on the same level you take the feat.

Which is nice. It'd suck if you couldn't.

[DragoonWraith]

Also, Feats explicitly state that you have to meet the requirements for them this level, while Prestige Classes specifically state you have to have had the requirements for them last level.

[Nate the Snake]

The order is class-BAB-Base saves-ability score increase-hp-skills-feat-spells-class features; it's on page 58 of the PHB if you want to check yourself.
...
Usually that exact order isn't too important, but it is the basis for why you can take a feat on the same level that you attain its prerequisites.

Oh. It seems I was mistaken, then.

Thanks for the clarification and page citation.

Unless WotC made a mistake with a sample character. Which I understand has happened on occasion.

Normally, I don't mind mistakes in sample characters very much, but when they confirm an incorrect interpretation of the rules...

[Person_Man]

Why do you want Dodge, anyway?

[Curmudgeon]

Why do you want Dodge, anyway?

Probably because it's a prerequisite for a zillion feats and PrCs.

[Lapak]

Why do you want Dodge, anyway?

Probably because it's a prerequisite for a zillion feats and PrCs.

Including Master of Nine, which is apparently what he's going for.

[Twilight Jack]

A better version of Dodge?

How about

Better Dodge {General}
You are adept at dodging blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: As a free action on your turn, you may designate an opponent and receive a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You may select a new opponent on any action.
For every 5 points of Base Attack Bonus beyond +1, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus which may be applied as part of the same free action, either against the same opponent or a different one. A character may use his ranks in Tumble - 3 in place of his Base Attack Bonus for calculating additional dodge bonuses.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Go show that to your DM and see what he says.