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    Default [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    (AKA (Ab)Using Rituals for Fun and Profit!)

    At one point in our group's D&D campaign, we found ourselves in part of a red dragon's lair, woefully underleveled (at least to fight a full grown dragon, which was thankfully absent). We quickly discovered that the place was trapped to the hells and back again, making it very difficult to reach the nest on the other side of the room, which held the plot item we were looking for. Said item is also about 600 pounds of solid gold, which meant getting it out was no simple task. So, what's a six-man band of 5th-level adventurers to do?

    Bust out the rituals.

    First, the cleric cast Unseen Servant, and directed it around the room, throwing coins onto the traps to trigger them and see what they do/how lethal they were (and where they were for that matter). We determined the best course was to use the wizard's Tenser's Floating Disk ritual to bypass the pressure-sensitive traps and reached the other side without incident.

    Next, the nest had a spike trap that we had to bypass as well to get to the plot item. Remember: 600 lb orb of gold. Someone (or two) would have to get in there to get it out. Using the disk to again bypass the spikes, we sent the two strongest members into the nest (which had two hatchlings hiding within) to load the orb onto the disk and then GTFO. The Servant, meanwhile, constructed a ramp leading out to a hole in the ceiling that lead out of the cave (while grabbing everything of value that it could).

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    In before anyone tells you that the plural of anecdote is not data.

    Edit: But to be more constructive, I don't think anyone would argue that every single ritual in 4e is useless or that there will never be a moment that they come in very handy.

    The consensus appears to be that there were a number of decisions made by WotC (casting time being the primary one) that severely limits the usefulness of rituals as a whole.
    Last edited by Colmarr; 2010-02-07 at 09:32 PM.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    My wizard routinely uses phantom steed and linked portal. Very good spells for getting around in the campaign I'm playing in. Our party's used hand of fate and endure elements on occasion too.

    Edit to above post: I'd have to agree wizard's decisions have limited a number of rituals - for example Arcane Lock. I'll never cast it. If I need a door locked I need it locked in a few rounds, not ten minutes. I'm better off finding something to barricade the door with.
    Last edited by rayne_dragon; 2010-02-07 at 09:39 PM.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Neither of those are how rituals helped you in a fight, which, lets face it, is what D&D(and 4e especially) is about. Sure they where useful in isolated circumstances, but with rare exception, rituals are not worth the time nor money.

    The DM guide is pretty specific about how much wealth you are supposed to give your players, and game balance assumes you have a certain amount of magic items(namely neck slot, armor, and weapons). by spending gold, a limited quantity, on a small temporary boon that in no way relates to combat, you have weakened your characters. Even potions are not as good this edition, but at least they help you survive a fight.

    In any case, until rituals cost something other than gold, they will be useless.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Neither of those are how rituals helped you in a fight, which, lets face it, is what D&D(and 4e especially) is about.
    That's the opposite of true. 4e D&D has more rules governing combat than governing non-combat situations, but that has nothing to do with the balance between those situations in play. And, as has been often stated, the entire point of rituals in 4e is that they're non-combat. Which is why the minimum casting time is 10 minutes.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    I think it really depends on your DM. How they run the game has a big impact on how useful rituals can be. Mine generally hands out more treasure than the recommended amount in the DMG (plus most of it comes through my hands since I do about 75% of the party's enchanting) so I don't feel too bad about dropping a few hundred gold on rituals each level to make life more convienent for my party.

    Linked portal and phantom steed can help with fights to. In the case of the former, it has bypassed difficult encounters that may have killed the party (once was a green dragons that we probably would have been fine for, the other time was an entire army that certainly would have killed us). Phantom steed can let you get to places you normally couldn't reach, plus allow you to make an airborn attack against creatures with less range than you or for hit and run attacks.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordgleam View Post
    That's the opposite of true. 4e D&D has more rules governing combat than governing non-combat situations, but that has nothing to do with the balance between those situations in play. And, as has been often stated, the entire point of rituals in 4e is that they're non-combat. Which is why the minimum casting time is 10 minutes.
    Yes, but gold is a resource your character uses for combat, so by using rituals you are hindering your combat ability, which doesn't really fly. D&D is, was, and will always be a small group war game with roleplaying elements. From it's beginnings as a chainmail spinoff, to it's current iteration where grids and squares are part of the mechanics, the game had always retained it's war game roots.

    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.

    In another gaming system(such as anything white wolf makes), making a character who focuses on out of combat pursuits at the expense of combat is perfect ally viable, but in D&D virtually everything about your character is about how well you fight, and no being able to afford that +3 wand you need to be able to hit enemies in combat because you cast tenser's floating disk too many times really sucks.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.
    The pricing is something a lot of people have issues with. Neuroglyph had a good article about it recently: http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1255

    I just really don't think "requires some tweaking in a particular aspect to be a mechanically good choice" equals "near useless." Rituals are a great idea that wasn't implemented perfectly. A little fixing makes them very good, and a few extra books make them awesome.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.
    Or three rounds (with some minor cost) but disrupted at the merest shove. Leave the really important meta-game rituals at their usual 10 minute casting time (i.e. Raise Dead).

    At any rate, it seems like you can split the Ritual cost amongst the party, but that really makes magic a group decision rather than a thing that a caster can throw off just for kicks.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2010-02-07 at 11:47 PM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.
    While I agree with the general thrust of your concern, I think you overstate it.

    PCs get 4 magic items per 5 levels, enough to keep up with the big 3 (weapon/implement, neck and armour) and have 1 left over. On top of that they get an amount of gold that can be used on additional items or something else.

    Spending that gold on rituals will not* cripple a character, because the game rules as presented ensure that the PC will get the 3 items it needs per 5 levels to keep up with the combat math. The character might miss out on some minor abilities, but it's nothing to worry about.

    * There might be some exceptions, such as Paladin/Wizards (who require weapon, implement, holy symbol, armour and neck every 5 levels and will struggle to keep up if they spend gold anywhere else).
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    I agree that (most) ritual costs are not crippling to (most) classes (gods forbid you are playing a two-weapon ranger multiclassed to wizard), but the sheer fact that the vast majority of rituals shouldn't cost gold when the book wants you to give out a strictly limited amount. Heck the DM can't even give the players ritual gold because ritual components(especially residium) are basically money at high levels.

    The fact is, in 9.9 out of 10 cases, you can find something better to spend the gold on then that ritual. The price to use a ritual once may not seem like much, but the cost to use it repeatedly whenever it would be useful really adds up, especially when added to the cost of the ritual itself. Not to mention the time it takes the use the ritual, 10 minutes is a long time, and many rituals(silence, sending, water walks, ect) may well be useless by the time you can finish the ritual. Why can't they take the same amount of time as a short rest...heck why can't they be cast as part of a short rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordgleam View Post
    The pricing is something a lot of people have issues with. Neuroglyph had a good article about it recently: http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1255

    I just really don't think "requires some tweaking in a particular aspect to be a mechanically good choice" equals "near useless." Rituals are a great idea that wasn't implemented perfectly. A little fixing makes them very good, and a few extra books make them awesome.
    I think it's more "Requires a complete overhaul" than requires some tweaking, and really that does equate to "near useless". I'm not saying that rituals can't be fixed(and the article you mentioned doesn't fix them at all, it offers one system that softens the blow a little, and another that is arguably worse with no real rules support), but what is written in the book is the only thing we on the board are assured to have in common. Just because one person found a fix, doesn't mean the rest of us have.

    I did work on a fix at one time, but the project was too much work considering how busy I am, in it I gave everyone with ritual casting a number of "ritual charges" equal to their level, and was giving most rituals a cost between 1 and 5 charges, with the ability to convert healing surges to more charges in a day if you really wanted to(possibly even potions to give a better exchange rate). Some rituals still had GP costs, but most didn't.

    I also reduced time, rituals had times of short(10 actions/1 minute), rest(usable during a short rest), and long(10 minutes+). Most rituals where either short or rest.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.
    I've instituted the following houserules in my game:

    1) Rituals do not have component costs

    2) All rituals with casting time of one hour or less take 1 minute (10 rounds) to cast. Rituals with casting time greater than one hour keep their printed casting times.

    3) Characters with the ritual caster feat get a number of "ritual points" equal to 3/2 * the character's level, rounded up. For example, a level 1 wizard would have 2 ritual points, a level 13 druid would have 20 ritual points, a level 25 invoker would have 38 ritual points, etc.

    4) Casting a ritual costs a number of ritual points equal to, surprise surprise, the level of the ritual.

    Certain rituals keep their component costs on a case for case basis, for example, Raise Dead. Well, Raise Dead is banned in my campaign (I feel that commonplace resurrection cheapens the narrative of death), but for games that allow it the component cost seems fine.

    Using this system allows characters to make full use of the rituals they know. Characters can only really cast their higher level rituals once/day, and then have plenty of room for their lower level ones. Using this houserule almost makes it feel like ritual casters are 3.5 edition psions who chose to only learn utility spells.

    I'm sure theres room for massive abuse under this system, but so far the worst my group has thought up was a hovercraft that was supported by hundreds of Tenser's floating disks, with the mage who created them sitting in a pilots chair (think Spelljammer).
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by falconflicker View Post
    We determined the best course was to use the wizard's Tenser's Floating Disk ritual to bypass the pressure-sensitive traps and reached the other side without incident.
    Well, Tenser's Floating Disk is generally known as one of the few low-level rituals that's worth it, so I'm not surprised you find it useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    In any case, until rituals cost something other than gold, they will be useless.
    While it's true that most rituals are overcosted, people often overlook that there's more problems with rituals than just the GP cost. The second problem is the casting time; many things that are useful in theory are markedly less useful if they take ten minutes of chanting. The third problem is restrictions; several rituals have so many restrictions on them that they don't actually do anything any more.

    The best houserule for rituals, I think, is to forget the rules text and instead play them according to their flavor text. In many cases, the two don't match at all, and the flavor text is generally what you want from the ritual.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    There already have been discussions about the usefullness of rituals.

    And there are far better rituals than Tensers Floating disc. From my point of view there is also often overlooked that Rituals can actively save you money.

    For example the Item Rituals. You could get 1/5 of the items worth...or the full value. What do you want? Without rituals you do not have the choice.

    Also there are good preparation rituals that prevent you from spending ressources (or characters) when someone attacks your group.

    The ten minutes casting time? Frankly the day has 24 Hours, and you fight about 3-4 fights per day. There is enough time for it.

    And many rituals have a very long duration. Spending 10 Minutes to travel multiple times as fast than normal, fly or teleport the whole way? There is nothing in it that makes this a bad deal.

    Having magical watches is better than having your comrades watching the scene, because they will have better senses, more eyes and do not need to sleep. Pay a small amount of money to save 2 hours of sleeping time may be worth the price if you expect some monsters to come and eat you.

    And we do not have to talk about the use of a ritual that let you understand every language in the world. Or Rituals that let you breathe water, fly or talk to the dead.

    And that is only heroic tier - you could also move mountains.
    Last edited by Leolo; 2010-02-08 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Leolo View Post
    There already have been discussions about the usefullness of rituals.
    Yes. However, it seems that everything you mention here is about the fluff of the rituals, and not about the actual rules. Like I said, the best houserule for rituals is to ignore their rules and play them by the fluff.

    For instance, by RAW, Disenchant Magic Item gives you 20% of the value, just like selling the item does; and by the rules, the Eye Of Alarm ritual cannot hear anything, which makes it worse than setting a watch.

    All rituals have flavor text that make them seem useful. Not all of them actually do what the flavor text says they do.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yes. However, it seems that everything you mention here is about the fluff of the rituals, and not about the actual rules.
    No i do not.

    Although of course Rituals have flaws they also have very good mechanic benefits.

    For example the eye of alarm may have tremorsense later and identify even invisible attackers.

    Disenchant magic item gaves you only 20% (not bad in any way, because it saves you the time to visit the next store) - Transfer enchantment gaves you the full value as a new item enchantment. And things like comprehend languages or water walk do exactly what the fluff says.

    It is not only that the fluff of rituals is good - there are also very good applications of them.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Leolo View Post
    Although of course Rituals have flaws they also have very good mechanic benefits.
    See, here's the thing: if people would claim that all rituals are overpriced or underpowered, then you need only a single example to prove them wrong. However, people aren't claiming that. People claim that most rituals are overpriced or underpowered; so the fact that you can find two or three that aren't, doesn't contradict that claim at all.

    The problem with Eye of Alarm is that you don't need it to find invisible attackers: anyone can find those, it's a simple matter of rolling perception against their stealth. Note that being invisible doesn't in fact give bonuses to stealth.

    The problem with Comperehend Language is the casting time. If, as the fluff suggests, you use it on "the guttural language of the creatures before you", then you first need to find a way to stall those creatures for ten minutes while you chant away. That means that somebody will likely be using Bluff or Diplomacy checks to improvise some sort of sign language, and doing so obviates the need for the ritual.

    The problem with Water Walk is that it affects only one creature. Because of its short duration, it's not really feasible to have your entire party walking on water. Pretty much any situation that can be solved by having one person walk on water, can be solved more easily through making swim checks.

    Of course, a competent DM will bypass the restrictions on the above three examples, thus playing them by their fluff text instead of their rules, and that's exactly my point.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    See, here's the thing: if people would claim that all rituals are overpriced or underpowered, then you need only a single example to prove them wrong. However, people aren't claiming that. People claim that most rituals are overpriced or underpowered; so the fact that you can find two or three that aren't, doesn't contradict that claim at all.
    Sure, but it helps. I mean...if you gave me no examples of overprized underpowered rituals, and i gave you five examples of rituals that are not overprized and underpowered it helps to find out what might be more true.

    What i do like to say is that rituals are often situational. It is powerfull to see through the wall and count how many guards are there. But it is situational. A good other example are your comments on comprehend languages or water walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The problem with Comperehend Language is the casting time. If, as the fluff suggests, you use it on "the guttural language of the creatures before you", then you first need to find a way to stall those creatures for ten minutes while you chant away. That means that somebody will likely be using Bluff or Diplomacy checks to improvise some sort of sign language, and doing so obviates the need for the ritual.
    No, it does not mean this. It means that comprehend languages is usefull if you know that you will have to understand a language, either by finding some writings of it or as a preparation before you will visit for example the orc king to negotiate with him. In fact the ritual would not be more usefull if you could cast it in 3 seconds because someone noticing you casting in front of him may kill you just for the case that you are doing something harmfull to him. And why exactly should a improvised sign language (improvised in 10 minutes) make it useless to perfectly understand a language?

    Sometimes you simple are not only asking for the way to the next tavern. You need real understanding of the person you are talking to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The problem with Water Walk is that it affects only one creature. Because of its short duration, it's not really feasible to have your entire party walking on water. Pretty much any situation that can be solved by having one person walk on water, can be solved more easily through making swim checks.

    Of course, a competent DM will bypass the restrictions on the above three examples, thus playing them by their fluff text instead of their rules, and that's exactly my point.
    In fact i had many situations during my games where it was neccessary to bring someone over a river who can not swim. Or can not swim good enough. For example i was saving a small kid from some poisonous monsters, and i did not have antivenom. It was a skill challenge like encounter to bring it back through the wilderness to it's home. He was ill and i would not be able to let him swim through the cold waters of the mountain river. Swim checks should help? They would only help him die. Maybe nature checks could help to find a better way? Sure, in fact this was the way my character acted.

    But i would have been 3 times as fast with this child at the village if i had used rituals. Or be able to save him from the poison by creating antivenom.

    And you have to compare this: You could pay 10 gp to cross the river or risk your life trying it. Also we are talking about a very low level ritual. There are rituals that transport your whole group over the river without swimming.
    Last edited by Leolo; 2010-02-08 at 09:12 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Of course, a wizard could just use dimension door or levitate to get across the water, or a fighter could use athletics and have it not cost money and 10 minutes. Heck, if your DM is willing the wizard can even make an ice bridge across the water with encounter powers. There are lots of solutions to problems that don't require rituals, thus even without the costs rituals should be really really good at what they do, not ho hum like they are now.

    I don't think anyone is saying there are not situations where the effect of a ritual would not be useful, but aside from a couple key rituals(dis/enchant magic item, teleport, raise dead, cure disease), the effects of the ritual either a)are not worth what they cost or b)not worth the time.

    Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place. Few classes get any number of free rituals, and unless you know are going to need that ritual alot, you are not going to spend the time and money to learn it, and if you are going to need it alot, just take linguistics.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying there are not situations where the effect of a ritual would not be useful, but aside from a couple key rituals(dis/enchant magic item, teleport, raise dead, cure disease), the effects of the ritual either a)are not worth what they cost or b)not worth the time.
    They aren't worth the cost or the time except when they are is what you're saying. And you're right, there are plenty of situations where rituals are useless. Middle of the desert, water walking ain't so great. Need your rogue with low athletics to sneakily make his way out to a docked ship? Need the wizard to be able to run over and shoot a fireball up into the rigging of the pirate ship when you attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place. Few classes get any number of free rituals, and unless you know are going to need that ritual alot, you are not going to spend the time and money to learn it, and if you are going to need it alot, just take linguistics.
    Shopping takes days of time? What campaign are you in? Here's how it's handled in my campaign "I want to buy ritual X" "Okay, that's 200 gold, you got that" "Yep." *brief flavor text of picking it up at the nearest place it would be available* Thirty seconds of play time, a totally unimportant chunk of ingame time.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    I haven't played much 4e in a home game setting, but I've played a lot of LFR. Aside from Raise Dead, I haven't seen any rituals get used. It's not that they're useless - they're just not necessary.

    LFR modules are designed so that just about any set of characters can get through. There are plenty of situations that would be made easier with a ritual, but none that require them. I get the sense that challenges in 4e follow this format. There are plenty of ways you can slow down your PCs. But most of them (and by them, I mean the challenges enumerated in the books. Good GMs will make up their own) can be beaten by a character without the aid of consumable ritual scrolls. The scroll may help, but it's never necessary.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Been playing awhile (ever since 4e came out), and I have to say, not even Item Creation gets used very often in the games I've played. Besides the Heal rituals, what I hear (and agree with) is that most of these things are 1) far too expensive to procure and cast (in particular the latter), 2) take WAY too long to cast, 3) rely on rather ridiculous skill check DCs to even work, and 4) produce pretty crappy effects even when they do succeed.

    Oh god, comprehend languages; I remember our KotS/TL/PoS party trying to use that to speak to a prisoner who only knew Goblin, we couldn't meet the bloody check DC. I think we were around level...5 or so? I was furious. Even the Heal rituals (the best ones by far) have that problem; we had to remove petrification from one of our paladins in the pyramid, blasted thing chopped off almost all his hit points.

    Rituals are crap; some nice ideas in there (such as delocalizing them, so that any character can use them by taking a feat), but the overall execution is -terrible- IMO.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place.
    Absolutely. Regardless of how much time shopping takes in your game, the point is that your character must have bought it in advance. If you find yourself in front of a chasm and think "hey, this is a good spot for the Create Bridge ritual", then that only helps if your character expected that he might encounter a chasm - and not just expected it, invested money for just this possibility.

    Considering how many rituals are highly situational, that's a lot of money to invest for hypothetical situations that may never occur. Would you buy a handful of rituals in the hopes that one of them might be useful some time in the future, or would you buy a powerful magical item that will help you every encounter?

    Quote Originally Posted by valadil View Post
    LFR modules are designed so that just about any set of characters can get through. There are plenty of situations that would be made easier with a ritual, but none that require them. I get the sense that challenges in 4e follow this format.
    This is not just limited to LFR, either. Usually, unless the DM specifically decrees that such-and-such challenge must be solved with a ritual, it can also be solved with e.g. skill checks. And whenever this is the case, skill checks will both be faster and cheaper.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightson View Post
    Shopping takes days of time? What campaign are you in? Here's how it's handled in my campaign "I want to buy ritual X" "Okay, that's 200 gold, you got that" "Yep." *brief flavor text of picking it up at the nearest place it would be available* Thirty seconds of play time, a totally unimportant chunk of ingame time.
    Yes...if your in city Greyhawk or Waterdeep. Even in high magic campaign settings, most towns and villages don't have a magic shop, and even fewer dungeons do. Unless all your adventures take place an hour away from a city large enough to have someone who had rituals books/scrolls on hand, you can't ensure that you will be able to pick up the ritual when you need it. That means that unless you thought ahead to buy the ritual, you likely won't have it when you need it.

    Since rituals are expensive, you are only likely to buy the rituals you need, which will mostly be healing rituals. You are only likely to buy a more limited ritual if you have reason to believe you will need it alot, in which case there are likely feats, utility powers, and magic items that would do the job better.

    For example, if the campaign takes place around a lot of water, you might pick up Wavestrider boots. They can be used immediately, not requiring 100 rounds to activate, and over time, if you use them alot, will pay for themselves when compared to the ritual.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Water Walk - 100g initial investment, 20gp component cost
    10 minute casting provides an hour of walking on water

    Wavestriders - 840gp initial investment
    Carry them around, slip them on for five minutes of water walking at the cost of a daily item power use.

    You have to use Wavestriders 37 times for them to cost less. And the utility offered by them is simply different. Wavestriders is a large initial investment for for the ability to gain a short buff on small notice costing a very limited but not hugely valuable resource.

    Water Walk is a cheaper initial cost, has a longer activation time and a longer buff, and costs a small amount of gold, exactly how small will depend on one's financial situation, but twenty gold is not going to be an arm and a leg past first level.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Considering how many rituals are highly situational, that's a lot of money to invest for hypothetical situations that may never occur. Would you buy a handful of rituals in the hopes that one of them might be useful some time in the future, or would you buy a powerful magical item that will help you every encounter?
    In fact this is a classical d&d question. How many ressources do you invest in preparation? I do not believe that you will loose many time by searching for rituals (you will be in the city from time to time anyway)

    But it is a preparation cost. In the most cases the price is only about 5%-10% of a magic item of the same lvl - and many rituals get better if you advance in levels. So you might compare the use of a lvl X item with the use of 10 Rituals of the same level. And while some rituals are situational the most of them are not.

    For example:

    Will your campaign involves traveling through the land? There are cheap rituals that make it faster, less dangerous and let you hide your tracks. Is this situational? Only in very few campaigns.

    There are rituals that let you look through the dungeon wall in front of you, hinder enemies from detecting you, detect secret doors or treasure or blocking a dungeon hallway. Situational? Only if dungeons are rare in this game.
    Last edited by Leolo; 2010-02-09 at 07:10 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightson View Post
    Water Walk - 100g initial investment, 20gp component cost
    10 minute casting provides an hour of walking on water
    What cripples Water Walk is not its monetary cost, but its ludicrous casting time coupled by the fact that it only affects one person.

    Compare it to: Athletics skill - 0 gp initial investment
    Zero casting time, provides at least one hour of crossing water.

    The DC for not drowning in stormy water is only 11. This means that pretty much every party will have at least one member who is literally incapable of drowning in stormy water (+4 from strength, +5 from being trained, +1 from being 2nd level or higher).

    How convoluted must the situation be that your needs for crossing water cannot be resolved faster and cheaper with the athletics skill?
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    Quote Originally Posted by Leolo View Post
    In fact this is a classical d&d question. How many ressources do you invest in preparation?
    Rather, will you invest in preparation for situations that are likely to occur, or for situations that are rare?

    I do not believe that you will loose many time by searching for rituals
    This I agree with.

    In the most cases the price is only about 5%-10% of a magic item of the same lvl
    This I don't. A random sample, Detect Object costs 20%, +8% per usage. Eye of Warning, 20% +4% per usage. Magic Circle costs 25% + 10% per usage.

    And while some rituals are situational the most of them are not.
    It would seem you have a very different definition of "situational". If something only works in uncommon situations, then it is situational. If something is rarely needed, then it is definitely situational.

    For instance, a power that gives you a stealth bonus in the forest is situational. A spell that only works on undead is situational. A spell that deals cold damage is not situational, since cold immunity is pretty rare.

    There are cheap rituals that make it faster, less dangerous and let you hide your tracks. Is this situational?
    For instance. Being faster is only needed if time is important; reducing danger and hiding tracks is only needed if something is after you that is way above your challenge rating. None of these are frequent occurences, therefore all three are situational.

    There are rituals that let you look through the dungeon wall in front of you, hinder enemies from detecting you, detect secret doors or treasure or blocking a dungeon hallway.
    None of these are common occurences either, with the exception of detecting secret doors in dungeon settings. For instance, blocking a hallway is only relevant if there's some big critter out there that you can't handle and that you can't outrun, and that can't bypass your barrier, and that doesn't mind waiting for 10 minutes while you put up the barrier. It doesn't get much more situational than that.
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    Default Re: [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not

    It is not only this situation. You could want to take a rest in a place that does look save enough for a rest. Blocking this room from intruders is not only a good idea if you already see them in front of you.

    Maybe our definition of "situational" differs. But regardless of word definitions resting in a dungeon is not a situation that is in any way rare.

    And to avoid danger while traveling is not only important if you expect higher level foes. Why should it be? Frankly, you have defined the situation "there may be monsters in the next room" and "a monster is patrolling the dungeon tunnel and searching for intruders" as

    None of these are common occurences either
    From my point of view the problem is that your perspective only is "in what situation would i use this ritual", and not "in what situation could it be usefull". Is it usefull to be not detected by the next orc patroll? Maybe you would not invest in preparations that could accomplish this, or you would invest in other ways to accomplish this.

    But the question is if this situation occures frequently or not.

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