What factors make up a 'perfect' society?

[Dust]

Less a roleplaying question and more a sociological one, I nevertheless feel that this is the best forum for this question.

I am currently GMing a game wherein I'd like to create a city that is locked away from the rest of the world, and is essentially a perfect, utopic civilization. The people there are mentally and physically superior to the rest of the world, technologically advanced, magically-adept, and globally detached.

I'd like to have different cultural and environmental factors and events that the PCs - who are citizens of this utopia - will get to view firsthand to really drive the point home. I want them to be extreme and a little creepy, but also really give the players a sense of complete superiority when they venture out into the rest of the primitive world.

For example (inspired by the recent debates regarding RL olympic athletes), the members of the utopic civilization undergo wholly-magical gene-splicing at birth in order to produce more red blood cells, reduce body fat to virtually nothing, and increase physical prowes in other ways.

It doesn't have to be realistic; I just want to know what you'd do if you had to attempt making this civiliation. Does it have a currency-less economy? Are the arts a high priority, or do they exist at all? And so on.

[Riffington]

Does it have a currency-less economy?

Every economy has a currency of some kind or other. Might be favors, might be bread, might be cigarettes...but there's something.

But this brings up the important question: what do people in this society actually *want*? I mean, I'm assuming they have security, food, shelter, pretty clothes, etc... what do they want?
Answer one: more stuff. Just because you have five shirts doesn't mean you wouldn't like a sixth, fuzzier shirt. This is always an easy answer.
Answer two: glorious art (or knowledge). Now, artists and scientists on Earth depend on the fact that their products are consumed by a productive populace. But when there's an overabundance of artists (if there's enough leisure time and enough stuff), then the artists stop producing things to be paid and start having to pay their audience to actually care about their stuff. Now the currency is attention.
Answer three: Desire has been tragically removed from these people.
Answer four: Power - they manipulate those barbaric primitives to war with each other; if your tribe wins you get status/power/etc.
there may be many other such answers.

[SurlySeraph]

*No commerce whatsoever. Everyone gives everyone whatever they ask for with no questions asked, because they wouldn't be asking for it if they didn't need it, right?
*No markets, for the same reason. You go directly to the factory or workshop to get what you want. Manufacturers for things people get a lot will be located in the center of population-dense areas, for the same reason.
*Extreme routine. Everyone does the same thing at the same time every. Single. Day. Unless something is going very, very wrong. Because it's more efficient that way.
*They don't get the concept of conversation. You tell people what they want to know about you and/or your work, and don't bring up anything else. Why would you? It's not relevant, and just wastes their time. They find it slightly confusing when the PCs want to make small talk - is my childhood and favored brand of alcoholic beverage really relevant to their mission here?
*Child labor. Everyone starts working as soon as they are physically capable, to get as much experience as possible. They may get a general education as well, but in their jobs (which may well be assigned at or before birth), people in this society are absolutely unbeatable.

[tahu88810]

See: Communism
Well, actually...Perfect Marxist Socialism. But y'know...

[GenericGuy]

The biggest drawback to a "perfect Society" is the question of dissent. Most fiction I've read with "Utopias" always come across as hive mindish and conforming to me.

[Asheram]

Sounds like you're trying to make Shangri'la there.

I'm just reminded of the old Ducktales episode... (Aaah.. Good memories)

A small Teocratic society where everyone works for everyones welfare.

[drengnikrafe]

...reduce body fat to virtually nothing...

How is this perfect? If something tragic happens and food is removed, or it gets really cold... you're pretty much screwed. Not to mention you may run out of energy more quickly than normal people.

Which brings me to my next question. How do you define perfect? What one person says may be disagreed with by the next person. My "Perfect society" is similar to our current one. With balance and reason all over the place. I guess if you never knew anything but perfection, it may seem all too natural, but I don't see how this paragon world would be fun or useful. It would just exist.

[fryplink]

im going to take this another direction, and go for a capitalist/lightly socialist utopia, controlled freedom

the center of the city has a massive aqueduct with a massive water source, sprouting from a tower (if its 3.5, decanters of endless water mounted atop a tower with pipes spider webbing the city)

the city is market driven, but since basic needs are supplied by magic (magic food-spoons, houses lie within extra-dimensional spaces creating a creepy symmetry as you walk down the road) all commerce is luxury-based, you sell luxury to buy more luxury. the luxury-based markets will be the only loud area


underneath the water-source tower is the university, which creates the aura of superiority you wanted, teaches magic, the arts and science (or magi-science as the setting demands). The university is required public education, with a brainwash-propaganda thing going on

the standardized education teaches violence out of the people, not by saying its wrong, but by arming everyone (thing cold war MAD warfare) with magic, so if someone casts fireball in the market, the market is a smoldering crater within 10 mins and everyone knows it (though secretly the market is under a mythal that prevents offensive spellcasting)

in fact the entire city is in a mythal that regulates the happenings, the mythal reads minds and democratically (but secretly) manages affairs within the background by counting peoples secret desires as votes to swing the city.

[Eldonauran]

Easy enough.

Direct divine intervention. Think Lolth and the drow, but with a good soceity. Lolth takes a direct approach to the social and religious interactions of her followers and it has molded them into exactly what she wants. Everything the drows do is done to either please Lolth, gain her favor, increase their own political status or to take revenge on someone else (all of the above pleases Lolth). For all that, Lolth hints that they will be favored in the afterlife.

You want to do something that massive, you need something that can not be overcome to keep everyone in line. Doesn't even need to be a god. Some other powerful force, either known, unknown, see or unseen that takes an active role in the working of society. Somebody does something they shouldn't ... something happens that makes them change their mind, whether good or bad, up to you. Eventually, people learn what not to do if it has immediate consequences.

How do you define perfect?

Yeah, you don't get to define it. All powerful deity does. *wink*

Food for thought

[Foryn Gilnith]

What one person says may be disagreed with by the next person. My "Perfect society" is similar to our current one

I want them to be extreme and a little creepy

I think that's the point.

The mind-invading sentient spell enforcing perfect democracy sounds nice. Needs a dash more mind control (mundane or magical) - a sudden surge of lust (or a similar emotion) could cause some cause.

[Beelzebub1111]

www.cityofreality.com The titular city that is detailed in the first couple chapters.

[fryplink]

You want to do something that massive, you need something that can not be overcome to keep everyone in line. Doesn't even need to be a god. Some other powerful force, either known, unknown, see or unseen that takes an active role in the working of society. Somebody does something they shouldn't ... something happens that makes them change their mind, whether good or bad, up to you. Eventually, people learn what not to do if it has immediate consequences.

thats actually what my mythal idea was aimed at doing, creepy unaviodable path-decider, giving you the appearence of free will, but only from the inside, outsiders think your wierd and brainwashed

[Eldonauran]

thats actually what my mythal idea was aimed at doing, creepy unaviodable path-decider, giving you the appearence of free will, but only from the inside, outsiders think your wierd and brainwashed

Great minds think alike. I am more of a fan of the whole direct divine interaction thing myself. Its refreshing to see a deity take an active role in his worshippers. Heheheh

[Jayngfet]

The problem is there is no universal perfection. Take for example the shape you're using: Lots of muscle, no fat. Just as often as it's considered beautiful it's considered hideous. This is just a vague thing, going into any more detail on any sort of features causes even wilder variations. Mental superiority is another big thing: How is pure INT used, skill wise? Knowledge(basketweaving) may seem useless or perfect given conditions.

The problem is DND isn't made to describe these things, hell reality isn't made for this sort of thing. One man's perfect loving society is another's oppressive dictatorship. Another's democracy where everyone votes on everything is another's idea of beaurocratic hell where vote tallying takes so long barely anything gets DONE.

Any society, no matter how it's done, will find people unhappy with it. Any ideology is terrible when seen through a particular social caste or belief system. It's more or less impossible to get "perfect".

[BRC]

Without mind control a perfect society is impossible.
If all physical needs are met, people will want Luxury. If People work, some people will want to work less. Even if everybody lives in total luxury without expending any effort, they will still find something to strive for, bringing them into conflict.

The way I would do this is to have everybody in said society be under magical compulsion to follow the societies rules. They are literally incapable of thinking about breaking the rules or considering any action that leads to harming another citizen. Of course, this works provided everybody else is following the same set of rules and the society stays isolated. If they encounter somebody else the strict locks on their behavior frequently lead to them either locking up, being totally unable to act, or going insane. Everybody is very happy, but they are in a way mindless. Everything is provided for them, and they are incapable of being jealous or dissatisfied, so they appear to be an enlightened society, but they're just going through the motions.

Think about it this way, they are given an image of themselves, they strive to achieve that image, but never to surpass it. For example, the entire society is in excellent physical condition, but they never actually need that muscle tone, they just do it because they are programmed too. They create art, not because they have a drive to express themselves, but because their programmed self-image is of somebody who spends a couple hours a week creating art. They don't even necessarily make good art, they are incapable of being dissatisfied, so they just work on art for an hour a day and believe what they have created is a masterpiece. Everybody else believes it's a masterpiece too, because they are incapable of believing otherwise.

[Eldonauran]

You got that right. Free will is such a damned double-edged sword.

[fryplink]

well try for both?

expanding on my mythal (it could just as easily be Eldonauran's gods or anything) supresses all violent thought but retains some competative urge, think a charm effect but instead of befriending the caster, everyone befriends everyone else? meh, im just throwing out ideas

that would allow OP's PCS the free will to act within the city w/o messing up the story early on (cant kill anyone), and creating the "perfect city"

plus the OP isn't really suggesting and actual "prefect city" but sorta a guilded city, it appears perfect, but lacks something that actually makes it perfect

[Beelzebub1111]

As a sort of adition to my previous remark, this page describes it best:
It's only really creepy until they know the truth:

Spoiler

Show

[Fishy]

I highly recommend The Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson. Spoilery goodness:

Spoiler

Show

At the end of the book, Hackwell releases two technologies onto the world: The Seed, which is nanotechnology advanced to the point that it can create anything at all out of the surrounding dirt- up to and including nuclear weapons, and The Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, which is educational technology advanced to the point where you can essentially mass-produce intelligent, creative, disciplined, moral and above all independent human beings with a solid understanding of math, science, arts, history, computing, sociology, psychology, nanotechnology, resource management, self-defence and the arts of war.

The book ends right before we see how it turns out, but it's either going to go very well, or very poorly.

[kyoten]

Couple of questions!

What's a Mythal and what book can they be found in?

What alignment is your "Perfect Society"? Each alignment would have it's own idealization of Perfection.

~Kyoten

[Foryn Gilnith]

What's a Mythal and what book can they be found in?

A Mythal, in this context, is an EXTREMELY EPIC SPELL. The term "mythal" is used because mythals are typically city-sized (see: Magic of Faerun)

[Thatguyoverther]

Low crime rates and happy citizens are common to both utopias and dystopias. The real major difference is whether or not people have uninhibited freedom. Dystopic societies tend to curb or control the populace through some means either overtly or with some more subtle means.

A "perfect" society is pretty much impossible without disrobing or curbing free will. And then it really isn't all that perfect.

Personally I'd go for a society based around Plato's idea of a state run by philosopher kings. The entire civilization's needs are met by magical means, and the people live in luxury. In such a state the main currency is the esteem of ones peers.

The majority of the populace spends their time discussing philosophy and the nature of the universe. The rulers are elected, primarily based on the number of people they can persuade to accept their particular philosophy.

Almost everyone is in a constant state of conflict with their neighbors, but the conflicts don't take place with swords but with words, debating and attacking the other person's line of reasoning. Scoring points off a rival in a public forum is the highest pleasure in this society.

Proponents of different philosophical schools take the place of political parties. Supporters of unpopular or poorly constructed philosophies take up the role of the outcasts of the society.

All the PCs have to do to make friends is agree with people, and make sure that no one else catches you agreeing with anyone else.

[Randel]

A few ideas:

1). Its a somewhat militant society, not so much that they fight all the time but its very structured and its an 'a place for everything and everything in its place' sort of society. Everyone belongs to The Society and knows what their position is. There are probably titles and ranks and classes for people to use.

2). Everyone knows everyone else and works for the betterment of society. There is the concept of Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. In Gemeinschaft everyone is linked by common mores and desires and act in the interest of society as a whole to benefit themselves, a family or close-knit tribe is such an example. In a Gesellschaft everyone has somewhat different interests and desires and tend to work for their own self interest... like in a modern business where they make things more to make money for themselves than necessarily to benefit consumers or fellow employees.

In a 'perfect' society, most everyone there would be some common goal or culture so that everyone knows that by helping others than it benefits them.

3). Exercising the body and mind. I'm thinking something like eastern exercises like the buddist monks who live in secluded temples, everyone has a common sort of excercise they do to keep their bodies and minds in peak physical condition. Its not so much that they need to genetically modify themselves, its that they learn to eat mostly vegetables and clean water with enough meat and such in there so that they get their vitamins and proteins without getting fat. Meditation, communication, excercise, and learning all gives the people a healthy body and calmness of mind to keep them in shape.

4). Rotating work. There may be a few 'masters' in the Society who stick to certain chores like pottery, medicine, cooking, or farming and these are the ones who are best at them. Everyone else kind of rotates their jobs in an organized manner... kind of like in Total Quality Management.. If everyone knows how the food is grown, harvested, cooked, and how medicine is performed and clothes made to at least a little bit then they all have a better idea of how their society fits together.

This also gives them a Jack of all Trades sort of setup so that each person has at least a good idea of how to do anything, even if they aren't an expert. A master blacksmith still knows how to grow corn even if he's great at metalwork.


So, a person from this society would know what their 'place' in society was. They would feel perfectly fine with talking to everyone around them from the king to the innkeeper, to the doctor, to the farmer, to the thief and such. They would excercise their body and mind daily and never eat too much to get sick or fat, and they would see no shame in doing mundane chores like cooking, cleaning, shoveling out the stables or perscribing medicine to others.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Most folks here seem to be emphasizing regimentation, control, strict roles, etc. for a perfect society. Why not go the opposite route if the whole point is to make things a bit creepy?

Citizens don't need to work, as every need is taken care of magically (creating food, harvesting it with golems, whatever). If people like to paint, they paint masterpieces or pointless crap, whatever takes their fancy; who cares if people want to see it or not? If people like to talk, they talk about the weather, philosophy, family, science, art, anything at all; if it's inconsequential, oh well--they have plenty of time, who cares? If people want to fight, they spar in an arena, in the streets, in someone's house, wherever.

Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.

[Harperfan7]

Perfect? Everybody being chaotic good. Also, preferably with the highest ability scores and level possible.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I read a Conan spin-off comic that more or less went like this.

Conan and some warrior buddies he's currently running with are enslaved by a Hyperborean city-state.

The story goes on to show that these people seized the city long ago from its previous inhabitants, with magic being the key factor in their victory. Once they seized a homeland, they optimistically set out on a quest for knowledge. (Like Conan, the previous defenders were struck by the unfairness of being defeated by magic in what they thought should be a straight martial contest.)

Eventually, they made a breakthrough where they could utilize souls as the raw energy to power their spells. Using their magic, they could control the weather, turning the lands surrounding the city into a blasted winter wasteland while keeping conditions at home warm and sunny. They had plenty of food, safety and leisure to pursue their arts. They even discovered the secret to immortality.

They brainwashed slaves and trained them into soldiers, who they then sent out to conquer the world to capture more slaves. These slaves served in their households, were their soldiers and the fuel for their magics.

However, it basically came down to the point where their society suffered its first suicide. A scholar ceased his work and simply pitched himself into a chasm. This stirred up much consternation at first. But more and more, ennui gripped the population and the ritual suicide of an entire household, slaves and all, turned into a sacred funerary ritual. It is a solemn moment of departure for citizens who no longer had any interest in an immortal life. Members of the city who lost interest in life ceremoniously jumped into the chasm at their city. (Conan learns to his disgust, that there is nothing special or transcendent down there but repugnant vermin that fed on the carrion.)

Conan, for his part, is there to witness the death of the latest token chick (who was a slave at one of the households) due to the ritual suicide of her master.

In Howardian fashion, it takes the theme of complex and sophisticated civilizations eventually falling into decay. Civilization is the exception to the rule of the barbarism that exists in between periods of more civilized ages.

In short, it is much like an empire. It is young and ambitious at first, but as it attains power it begins to lose its initial idealistic drive and becomes disengaged and uninterested. Its power is propped up by fringe elements and slaves (or colonies) who insulate them from the outside world. (Its technologies might then be forgotten to the mists of time.)

I can easily see this setting as one where "necessary barbarism" becomes a prevalent theme.

[Dexam]

Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.

I think you may have missed the point of the original post. The PC's aren't entering the utopian society from the outside - they're going from the utopia into the big, bad world outside. Culture shock ahoy!

[LurkerInPlayground]

Most folks here seem to be emphasizing regimentation, control, strict roles, etc. for a perfect society. Why not go the opposite route if the whole point is to make things a bit creepy?

Citizens don't need to work, as every need is taken care of magically (creating food, harvesting it with golems, whatever). If people like to paint, they paint masterpieces or pointless crap, whatever takes their fancy; who cares if people want to see it or not? If people like to talk, they talk about the weather, philosophy, family, science, art, anything at all; if it's inconsequential, oh well--they have plenty of time, who cares? If people want to fight, they spar in an arena, in the streets, in someone's house, wherever.

Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.

Well, the thing you describe, is in fact, not perfect.

The citizens are completely bored and unengaged with life. And their power probably comes off the backs of other people who suffer so that they can maintain their lifestyle.

There are no real challenges. And they don't actually need strong character to overcome adversity. So they're always thoughtlessly cruel and wield power without much consideration for the consequences.

It's basically a society of overgrown children.

[doc awesome]

I think the cit would have constructs of some kind inhabiting it.

[Beelzebub1111]

Well, the thing you describe, is in fact, not perfect.

The citizens are completely bored and unengaged with life. And their power probably comes off the backs of other people who suffer so that they can maintain their lifestyle.

There are no real challenges. And they don't actually need strong character to overcome adversity. So they're always thoughtlessly cruel and wield power without much consideration for the consequences.

It's basically a society of overgrown children.

Well, I suppose that depends on where the campaign stands on the sliding scale of cynicism vs Idealism.

Such freedom from nessecity could foster a greater interest in personal growth. People would be strong because they want to be, they would paint and practice art because they enjoy it. Cooks would cook because they like to cook. Mages would learn magic to help their community. They would watch out for the safty of others because there is no reason to not. There would be nothing to gain from lying since you have everything you could possibly need. Maybe the people of this society have developed an emotional maturity to handle such things, and not argue over petty things. People settling their differences face to face. simply have them be honest, good people.