[3.5] Evil God Demands Respect!

[Crow]

I may have crossed the line last night;

Last night, our level 5 group gained an audience with an evil epic npc that had become a quasi-diety. The group was escorted into the god's domain, and when he showed himself, the guards all kneeled before him.

Knowing that they were here to make a request of this guy, the player characters each took a knee as well...except for one of them. One of the guards whispered to the character "Will you not kneel before our god?", to which the character replied "No."

By now, the diety is wondering why this douche won't take a knee and declares "You shall kneel before me mortal, or I will lay you low.", to which the character again replies very simply "No.".

So at this point, the god follows with "Witness the fate of those who defy me within my own domain.", and proceeds to hit the character with a Finger of Death. The character fails the save (roll came out to a five), and dies on the spot. At this point the rest of the group is doing nothing, and apolagizes for their friend before attempting to make a request of the now slightly irritated diety.

So I feel I may have crossed the line by outright killing the stubborn character, but I am conflicted, as I also don't think it was out of line for an evil god to require respect inside his own house.

What does everyone else think?

[Foryn Gilnith]

That's absurd. You shouldn't have killed him, unless the quasi-deity was rather impulsive. Finger of Death isn't painful enough.

[Altima]

If anything you're not being vindictive enough. Personally, I do think it was a bad idea to outright kill the character, though I can understand if a paladin or cleric of a rival deity did not kneel.

Still, if all he did was kill the character, who would care about it? His guards are already pious enough, and the PCs, well, don't care and are only brown nosing to get a favor.

I think it would have been a better idea to maim the character in some way. Perhaps a specific curse that can only be removed with an Atonement spell (Mark of Justice/Inequity?) or something along those lines. Or the deity could simply hack off a limb, burn his symbol into said character's forehead, and call it a day.

[AtwasAwamps]

In my personal opinion, your decision to punish the character was correct, but your method was incorrect.

The BBEG-type should have simply inflicted incredible pain on them, or cursed them, or simply done something HORRIBLE to them that left them alive to actually suffer the consequences of their actions. Cheesy? Yes. Less prone to cause fits of anger than killing a PC during a diplomatic encounter? Yes.

[illyrus]

In my mind it depends on why he did it. Was he a devout follower of an opposed god? Was he just being a jerk? Was he playing the "_____ bow before no man" character?

Was he annoyed at that turn of events? I've had situations like that in the past where I've played a character type that would not kneel before anyone but agents of his diety and would only nod his head as a sign of respect for another's station or power. Then again I was perfectly fine with that character being destroyed and making up a new character.

I'm personally not a big fan of having the PCs interact with the divine directly for reasons such as this and will only use agents of the gods such as a mortal priest or an angel/demon/devil/whatever.

*Edit - Actually as a note I'd be more annoyed with longlasting curses or whatnot than simple death. From your explanation the player seemed rather calm in what he was doing and going way overboard would be seen as the DM being vindictive instead of the god. Now if the PC in question started with a string of "your mom" jokes or other childish behavior that would be different.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I would say it wasn't something bad. I would have toyed with him first mabye given him one more chance but i don't know any thing about your quasi diety so i can't realy give a fair assesment.


Though from a simulationist point of view you did nothing wrong.

[Crow]

General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

[JeenLeen]

I think a line was crossed because the punishment seems to be something a level 5 group cannot fix. I would be annoyed if my DM put me in a situation where my character would be unable to hold to his views and live. A curse or even a Geas is reasonable, a burden the PC must bear for his code. At that level, death is too severe.

I suppose you could argue that the character could have explained himself: "I acknowledge your power and do not mean to show disrespect. However, my code/god/etc does not allow me to show deference in that form." Diplomacy roll, if you want to add some randomness.

Now, if the player was just being a jerk or being stupid--stubborn without a reason--than it's more reasonable. I had one game where the group was insistent on learning about different quests than those the DM was giving us; the DM said we found out about a large dragon in a mountain that someone wanted dead. We were about level 8, and it was obvious the dragon was far beyond our powers. But if we had gone, we'd have all died, quite fairly. But our stupidity or brashness would have earned it.

Edit: wrote this before seeing the OP's second post. Depends on the group and player. Would they be more annoyed with a Geas they have to carry out and want to just reroll, or more annoyed at losing a character?

The rogue, if he wanted to be a jerk, could have bluffed around it. That does sound like player stupidity, not realizing the situation he is in and thus... well, dying for it.

[Asheram]

General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

I would've loved to see the expression of the player... Oh well. Time to add insult to injury by animating the dead players body and have him scrub the floors of your temples. (Btw, would be a nice touch to have him open the door the next time that the party comes visiting)

Beside. If you stand before a malevolent entity with unimaginable powers and is disrespectful... Well... Bad things Will come your way.

[Lin Bayaseda]

If I was an evil mortal who pulled enough strings and stepped on enough bodies to become an evil God, and some mortal would diss me in my own domain, my first choice would be to kill them too. You did fine. I mean, the rest of the party found this death to be quite expected, given the event that led to it, didn't they?

[Prime32]

I would have reduced him to a mass of screaming flesh which spends every second of its life in unimaginable agony, and turned him back with a snap of my fingers if anyone asked for mercy.

[Altima]

General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

It's hard to walk tall without one or more legs. I think it is physically impossible to waddle tall. Or be carried around by another PC-tall.

But, anyway, this is a classic example of a silly character doing silly things that will get himself killed.

[Lysander]

I don't think you were out of line if it's clear the guy did in fact have divine power. You could have gone with something less fatal perhaps like a Baleful Polymorph, and let the party worry about turning him back later.

[sheltem]

BoVD, page 110:

3rd level spell Wrack:

The subject is wracked with such pain that he doubles over and collapses (so much for getting him on his knees). His face and hands blister and drip fluid, and his eyes cloud with blood, rendering him blind. For the duration (1round/lvl, which an epic demi-god should have plenty of) of the spell the subject is considered helpless and cannot take actions. [...] Even after the spell ends, the subject is still visibly shaken and takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves and checks for 3d10 minutes.

That's what popped into my mind reading the original situation.

[BooNL]

I would've loved to see the expression of the player... Oh well. Time to add insult to injury by animating the dead players body and have him scrub the floors of your temples. (Btw, would be a nice touch to have him open the door the next time that the party comes visiting)

Beside. If you stand before a malevolent entity with unimaginable powers and is disrespectful... Well... Bad things Will come your way.

Love it!

That said, I think you did the right thing. Look at it this way, if the quasi-godthing has taken the time to cast a geas/horribly maim/mark of whatever him, that would mean he cared enough about the character.

He didn't. The character was like a fly to him. You don't go around poking off the wings of every fly either, you just swat it.

[Maloric]

Given the situation, I think your actions are entirely appropriate. You gave the player ample opportunity to change his mind and he should have been punished for his impudence.

Personally, as a DM I would have cursed the disobedient character with something along the lines of Wither Limb (pg 72 of Libris Mortis), so that he falls prone in front of the god. Then if he wants to be able to walk again, have him complete some lowly and humiliating job like cleaning out the sewers, with a toothbrush, as an example to all that would defy the god. Mind you, I have been told I'm a sadist. Death is too easy.

Of course some excellent diplomacy checks and due groveling/butt kissing might convince the god to grant the character the use of his legs, before he's sent to clean the sewers.

[vicente408]

The most important thing is, how do the players feel about it? Is the player upset that his character was killed? Does the party think it was unfair, or that it was justified by being in-character for the bad guy?

[Crow]

The player who's character died is a little butt-hurt about it. The rest of the group is a bit bummed at losing an ally, but agrees that he earned his fate.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Look at it this way, if the quasi-godthing has taken the time to cast a geas/horribly maim/mark of whatever him, that would mean he cared enough about the character.

If I were a quasi-godthing, I'd make my default attack HORRIBLE TORTURE rather than DEATH. A spell is a spell, after all, and the former option offers more flexibility.
But what's done is done. The next IC course of action would be to animate the corpse, but I'm not sure how well the OP's PCs would take that.

[Lysander]

What would also be appropriate is something like Nybor's Joyful Voyage. Teleports your victim target 1d100 miles in a random direction.

Player: I will not bow!
*Poof*
DM: Okay, so you're now standing by yourself in the middle of a swamp...

[Asheram]

The player who's character died is a little butt-hurt about it. The rest of the group is a bit bummed at losing an ally, but agrees that he earned his fate.

Then it's alright. He ******* up and paid for it, and as long as everyone involved agrees and accepts this then you've done nothing wrong.

[magic9mushroom]

You should have had the evil god use Disintegrate instead of FoD. It looks cooler.

[Lin Bayaseda]

You should have had the evil god use Disintegrate instead of FoD. It looks cooler.

A handful of dust does not a good zombie make.

[magic9mushroom]

A handful of dust does not a good zombie make.

It makes a better example, though.

[Riffington]

You had the guards whisper to him, and then the deity asked him. I think that for most evil deities, that's a little more warning than usual.

Seriously, what did he think would happen? A fine?

[Choco]

You had the guards whisper to him, and then the deity asked him. I think that for most evil deities, that's a little more warning than usual.

Seriously, what did he think would happen? A fine?

Naw, this is a PC we are talking about, PC's are ABOVE any sort of social requirements and standards! He probably just assumed he would be ignored.

I have had to do similar things before, almost always to show the players of Chaotic Stupid characters that they can't just do whatever they want without consequence.

[Lin Bayaseda]

True story: years ago, I was with a roleplaying group who just came in to see the Evil Theocrat of Something or Other. I mean, the guy was eeeeevil! As we came in, he was just finishing punishing one of his men-at-arms by cutting off his tongue. Why? We don't know ... he was eeeeevil!

Anyway, he shoves the bloodied victim away, and turns to us: "What do you want, filthy dogs?"
Smart-ass player: "We just came to say hello, filthy cat."

The room went silent. You could hear every breath. Or rather, you could have heard every breath, if someone was actually breathing. A minute or so later, the DM obviously caved in and decided to cater for the players. He had the Theocrat mutter something, and essentially let us go with a warning. That was more than 10 years ago, but I still remember the utter dissatisfaction we all felt. I mean, come on, the guy was eeeeevil!

[juggalotis]

personally i hate this sort of behavior. but if it was for roleplay purpose instead of being a **** i probobly would have given him a severe warning along the lines of the character losing an eye by some magical means to which it could never be replaced, subsequently id give him a permanent penealty to something like spot check due to the loss. then give him one more chance to bow. then if he doesnt he knew the risks.

[Saph]

I think I would have used Power Word Kill instead. Gets the message across more thoroughly.

The Wrack and Wither Limb suggestions are good too, depending on his mood. Whichever, there is absolutely no way that he would let the PC get away with it. Evil deities do not take lip from mortals.

So yeah, you did the right thing. Remember that in situations like this every other player is watching the DM very closely to see what you do. If the deity had let the PC off, the rest of the party would have lost all respect for him instantly.

[Ravens_cry]

It makes a better example, though.

I am sorry but I have to disagree. Having the body waddle around everytime the party nips in for a spot of tea is a GREAT example.