Finding & killing a lvl 20 wiz (3.5, core)

[Adamaro]

I have an idea about a guild of wizards. This guild has a sort of a "obligatory membership" for all powerful (above lvl 14) wizards and I would like some guidelines on how would guild members find a rouge wizard, not participating in their nice little community. The point is that in the past some wizards concocted some explosive plans which plunged the land into disarray, so the guild was formed as a body where wizards can do what they like without (seriously) endangering the land or trying to harm other wizards.

Ergo: A powerful wizard goes rouge. How can he be found and dealt with?

Important note: Core books only.

[Optimystik]

At that level, Legend Lore and Vision can be used to track him even if he has a constant Mind Blank up. Psionics can also do a fair bit with Hypercognition and Metafaculty.

EDIT: Psionics aren't exactly core of course, but those two powers are in the SRD.

EDIT 2: Contact Other Plane can also help - simply ask an epic outsider who can pierce his detection-blocking.

[Zom B]

how would guild members find a rouge wizard

Follow the trail of mascara.

But no, seriously, even with magical means, there's things the wizard will have never thought of. Maybe he made himself immune to scrying, but did he find some way of making sure good Gather Information checks to track his whereabouts can't find him? If he's active enough to go get spell components or just be seen in a city, he can be found. And if he hasn't been causing any splashes anywhere, then it's very difficult for him to do whatever it is he is doing under the radar. Once he's tracked, a good ambush consisting of Forcecage, Dimensional Lock, and Silence should trap him.

[Adamaro]

If a wiz uses Mage’s Magnificent Mansion and decides to plan his evil plans there and has constant Mind blank, can he be tracked down? IMO he does not need to travel in search of food or other mundane things to material plane?

Also, which outsiders from MM1 can could pierce detection blocking?

[Optimystik]

Also, which outsiders from MM1 can could pierce detection blocking?

Deities, natch.

And I already pointed out four ways around Mind Blank in my first post.

[BobVosh]

If the guild has just 1 epic caster it is easy to do large epic spells with a guild of wizards backing you up.

An epic scry and a very epic version of antimagic field that blocks all but your spells. 1 mile radius. It is the kind of cheese that breaks your game as a player, but allows you to do fun things as a DM if you use it as flavor. Then never, ever do it.
I thought you said stuff on D20srd only. My bad.

[Zom B]

Although the Epic Level Handbook is not a Core book, most DMs are fine with it, as it is more a supplement to continue where the PHB left off. Of course, it's understandable for DMs to feel that once players get to epic levels, things just get out of hand too quickly.

[BobVosh]

I have always felt it works a lot better as a DM only tool. Also the rules for BAB and saves is just weird.

[Runestar]

I am pretty sure you can just wish your party to him. The PHB even lists a similar scenario (where wishing for a staff of power teleports you to a wizard possessing one).

[Optimystik]

I am pretty sure you can just wish your party to him. The PHB even lists a similar scenario (where wishing for a staff of power teleports you to a wizard possessing one).

Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

[Oslecamo]

Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

So legend lore and vision can find him easily, but 9th level wish with the 5k exp cost doesn't?

[Adamaro]

Forget legend lore. Core only. So Vision might be the best tracking tool ...

[Runestar]

Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

Ah, but I am not attempting to gain information about the target, I am requesting to be brought straight to him.

[Zom B]

Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

Hmm, but the poster does raise a good point, even if inadvertently. If you knew of a specific item the wizard owned, you could Wish to be teleported to it.

Forget legend lore. Core only. So Vision might be the best tracking tool ...

Legend Lore is not core?

[Adamaro]

Ah, my bad. It is. But Legend lore requires above lvl 20 characters, or am i wrong? Lvl cap is 20.

Edit: I need new glassess :-D

[Lysander]

Simple. Use Wish.

Before anyone protests that Mind Blank foils Wish read this:

Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish. Then use this use of Wish to summon the rogue mage to face judgment:

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

[SilverStar]

Hire a psion (seer) and have them manifest Metafaculty. Failing that, research it as a spell.

Metafaculty pierces through the petty mind blank.

Scry on an object they possess instead of them. Their staff ain't mind blank'd.

Divine casters could get help from their deities while using contact other plane and commune spells.

[Optimystik]

So legend lore and vision can find him easily, but 9th level wish with the 5k exp cost doesn't?

It's not easy at all. Legend Lore takes two weeks.

Vision shows him to you, provided he did something significant, and doesn't give you any other information. So you'd better hope he's outside a Denny's or the Space Needle or something you can triangulate from.

Forget legend lore. Core only.

Legend Lore is core.

Ah, but I am not attempting to gain information about the target, I am requesting to be brought straight to him.

So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish.

Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

[Narazil]

So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish. Then use this use of Wish to summon the rogue mage to face judgment:

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

I'd say Wish was a Divination spell, with the purpose of "information gathering", if used for such a purpose.
It's a bit unfair to bring up though, as its based on DM's decision.

[Runestar]

It's not easy at all. Legend Lore takes two weeks.

Duplicating it via limited wish shortens its casting time to a standard action.

Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

Fine then. "I wish to be brought to the very room where XXX wizard is".

[Lysander]

Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

Actually it says that it can move anyone, anywhere, to anywhere. You're not going to him, he's coming to you. You could also send him to a particularly nasty spot on the lower planes if you wanted.

I'd say Wish was a Divination spell, with the purpose of "information gathering", if used for such a purpose.
It's a bit unfair to bring up though, as its based on DM's decision.

If you're using it to bring him to you its a conjuration (calling) spell rather than a divination spell.

Using wish to call him isn't perfect however. The rogue mage still gets a will save to resist, and the caster spends 5,000xp whether it succeeds or not. But it's the kind of thing a powerful council of mages would do as a last resort.

[SilverStar]

I wonder, could this hypothetical council relocate to another plane, then Gate him in?

[Optimystik]

Actually it says that it can move anyone, anywhere, to anywhere. You're not going to him, he's coming to you. You could also send him to a particularly nasty spot on the lower planes if you wanted.

I hear those level 20 Wizards have awful Will saves and no SR

I wonder, could this hypothetical council relocate to another plane, then Gate him in?

No, because he wouldn't be "Extraplanar" - you would.

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane).

[Lysander]

Perhaps a custom made epic spell the guild developed just for this purpose? Combine the Reveal Seed and the Dispel seed to make a scrying spell that attempts to dispel any magical defense that blocks it.

The rogue wizard is just level 20, but a guild of wizards that's been around a while presumably has some higher level members.

[Optimystik]

Such a cabal of ur-wizards is begging to be overthrown, though. Consider Elminster, Pug, The Simbul... and doomed cabals like Dalaran, Netheril, Tar Valon etc.

[Lysander]

I think any time there's a society of any sort in epic fantasy its just asking to be destroyed or radically altered.

[magic9mushroom]

Deities, natch.

And I already pointed out four ways around Mind Blank in my first post.

Deities aren't in the Monster Manual.

[DueceEsMachine]

There's also the various robed wizards of Dragonlance... and how they hunt down renegade wizards. They don't wait until you're level 20 to do it though, they get you around level 4 or 5...

Just saying. A little bit of forward thinking goes a long way.

[Optimystik]

I think any time there's a society of any sort in epic fantasy its just asking to be destroyed or radically altered.

Except Hell, natch.

Asmodeus has been in charge since at least 2e and that doesn't look like it's going to change.

Deities aren't in the Monster Manual.

No, but they're in the PHB.

[magic9mushroom]

No, but they're in the PHB.

Not statted, they aren't. I'm mostly just being pedantic, though.

Also, why would a god be doing what a wizard cabal tells them?