[3.5] Breaking E6?

[Calimehter]

I DM for a group that plays a mostly-unoptimized and (up till recently) mostly-core game that recently switched over to using the E6 rules mod. I'm aware that some folks on the forum would find this sort of thing horribly limiting, but so far everything is going smoothly and folks seem to enjoy it. With the switchover to E6, I've said that I'm going to be a lot looser in what is allowed from splatbooks and other non-core sources. The default used to be "no", now the default is "yes".

Right now, I own Complete Adventurer and UA, and oddly Heroes of Battle too. I have access to other books through the players, though I haven't gone about acquiring any for myself yet.

So . . . what do I need to watch out for in the splatbooks that a DM whose previous experience was (almost) all-core might miss? I would like to forestall any campaign-wreckers, or at the very least get an idea of some optimized ideas to watch out for. Most of the "nasty" game-breaking stuff I read about relates to builds in the double digits for character levels, but I can imagine that there's some stuff out there that is too good even for E6.

Thanks in advance for the feedback! :)

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P.S. Some background on house rules (above and beyond E6):

- Spontaneous Metamagic (Extra Slots variant) from UA, since otherwise metamagic is very hard to use with only 3 caster levels.
- Incantations from UA, for nice "plot hook" sorts of higher level spell effects w/o having them make much difference in a combat situation.
- Expanded Disabled/Staggered range, where anyone below 10% of their HP becomes Disabled (instead of just at 0HP)

Some rules I'm already considering banning:

- DMM and other "swap power X for metamagic or extra spell Y" type abilities. I'm already using Spontaneous Metamagic to help the spellcasters out, no need for DMM Persists on top of that. ;)

- ToB, Psionics, and other books that have fundamental rules changes. Extra feats and classes and the like are really more of what I'm looking for in a sourcebook, and neither of those two books I listed really fit in nicely with the campaign background.

[DragoonWraith]

Shivering Touch is an incredibly broken 3rd level spell. It's in Frostburn and Spell Compendium. Lesser Shivering Touch is pretty harsh, too, though much less so. Beyond that, hmm. Celerity from Player's Handbook II is bad, but it's 4th level, so you're safe from that. Other than that, most of the really broken spells are from Core.

Outside of spells... eh, really, I can't think of anything. Seriously, you've been "restricting" yourself to the most unbalanced books in 3.5...

[Tavar]

Druids can be beastly, luckily they're in a little known splatbook called the Players Handbook.

[Calimehter]

I've been told that often enough that I'm starting to believe it. :)

What does Shivering Touch do?

[Eldariel]

3d6 Dex damage as a touch attack without a save, with sr. In other words, it one-shots Dragons (if connecting).

[Tavar]

3d6 Dexterity Damage, touch attack, no save. Possibly no SR(I can't remember). Also known as the dragon killer.

[Tyndmyr]

Level adjust, due to the fact that E6 replaces it with stat loss, can make some races/templates quite attractive.

Dragonwrought kobold is another obvious choice. The access to epic feats is juicy when you consider that feats are much more available in E6. For instance...epic toughness. +30 hp. I have to look to see if there's a creative way to get loredrake or the draconic rites in an E6 build...but if possible, thats a significantly powerful amount of cheddar.

[Draz74]

Candle of Invocation-based Wishes, obviously.

- ToB, Psionics, and other books that have fundamental rules changes. Extra feats and classes and the like are really more of what I'm looking for in a sourcebook, and neither of those two books I listed really fit in nicely with the campaign background.

I'm sorry to hear it doesn't go well with your campaign background ... because I happen to think psionics are a particularly nice supplement to E6. (Not so much ToB. I love the book, but E6 isn't really where it shines IMHO.)

EDIT:

Level adjust, due to the fact that E6 replaces it with stat loss, can make some races/templates quite attractive.

Dragonwrought kobold is another obvious choice. The access to epic feats is juicy when you consider that feats are much more available in E6. For instance...epic toughness. +30 hp. I have to look to see if there's a creative way to get loredrake or the draconic rites in an E6 build...but if possible, thats a significantly powerful amount of cheddar.

Quoted for truth. Pixies, for example, are nasty in E6.

[DragoonWraith]

Dragonwrought Kobold and Draconic Rite of Passage (but usually not the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, though you could argue that it is merely the Sorcerer catching up with the Wizard) are fine so long as you don't allow them to qualify for Epic feats.

As far as not allowing things that change the rules - eh. I wouldn't be particularly interested, because I like a lot of mechanical variety in my games. That's just personal opinion, though. On the other hand, neither Psionics nor Martial Maneuvers use complicated mechanics - in fact, I'd argue that both are in many ways simpler than normal Spellcasting. The only really complicated mechanics are in Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic (but at least in Incarnum's case, it's awesome - and the most complicated rules in ToM are Truenaming, which is awful any way and the rest of the book isn't so much complicated but is awesome).

[Calimehter]

Thanks for the tips, folks.

The Candle of Invocation comment reminded me of one other related question I wanted to ask. I'm thinking of adding an "epic" E6 feat that allows characters to create items with caster levels higher than 6. There would be restrictions on it, of course, such as applying each use of the feat to one item only and/or making the item's cost and requirements higher than normal even with the feat. Like the Incantation rule from UA, it allows for access to higher level magic effects (items in this case) but making it such that it would be very rare and more likely to be taken by a dedicated-build NPC than an adventuring-oriented PC build (though available if the PC wished to devote the time and attention to it).

Are there vast numbers of magic items 'just above' caster level 6 that could cause this move to backfire on me?

[Tyndmyr]

I don't think so...but in general, allowing level 4 spells for the price of a feat each isn't too broken, so allowing corresponding magic items to be created, also for a feat cost, shouldn't be that big a deal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon could potentially allow an E6 character to cast 4th level spells, though it's limited to Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. A Dread Necromancer would get access to Enervation, and with E6's built in Swift Metamagic and other tricks like using Sanctum Spell to make it 3rd level to use a Lesser Rod of Maximize, you could set up two Maximized, Twinned, Split Ray, Ocular Enervations. With a single full round action the character can fire four rays, each of which deal eight negative levels, to up to four separate targets who are guaranteed to be no higher than 6th level. It takes some shenanigans to accomplish, but it's probably one of the more powerful tricks that are possible in E6.

[Oslecamo]

I don't think so...but in general, allowing level 4 spells for the price of a feat each isn't too broken, so allowing corresponding magic items to be created, also for a feat cost, shouldn't be that big a deal.

I believe one of the main points of E6 is to keep precisely 4th levels out of the door.

That is a golden level for magic, when casters start geting the really obscene stuff.

Fly is pretty nice as a 3rd level spell, but one level higher and you get black tentacles, polymorph, improved invisibility, enervation, planar biding, divine power, dimension door, phantasmal killer, scrying and the list just goes on.

Even one of those spells will greatly increase the spellcaster's power.

[sonofzeal]

I'd like to echo the popular sentiment - most of the really broken stuff is from Core. There's some stuff outside of Core that's a real step up in power, but it's usually stuff that needed a step up. Shocktrooper and Dungeoncrasher for Fighters comes to mind, as does Tashalatora for Monks and Dragonfire Inspiration for Bards.



Potentially broken stuff... mmmm.... that's accessible by lvl 6? Not a whole lot, really. Fleshraker Dinosaurs are brutal for Druids though, especially combined with the Venomfire spell. Divine Metamagic and other Metamagic Reducers are also highly questionable; ruling that you have to be able to cast the modified spell pre-reduction helps though. Warlocks get 24/7 flight in E6 and almost nobody else does, but they really don't get enough else for it to be a massive problem. Entangling Exhalation is probably worth banning for Dragonfire Adepts. Artificers as a whole might be a good idea to ban outright too.

[Sinfire Titan]

Entangling Exhalation is probably worth banning for Dragonfire Adepts.

Gonna disagree here. I didn't notice any particular advantage when I allowed it in a 3rd level campaign, or at least didn't notice a difference big enough to matter. Of course, I was sending ECL 7-9 encounters at the three PCs...

[sonofzeal]

Gonna disagree here. I didn't notice any particular advantage when I allowed it in a 3rd level campaign, or at least didn't notice a difference big enough to matter. Of course, I was sending ECL 7-9 encounters at the three PCs...

Sorry, I should have clarified - I think it's fine (if in need of a damage nerf) for normal Dragonfire Adepts. But in E6, with no Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door, I think it becomes a lot more powerful. I'd at least consider it distasteful in an E6 game, but that's just me.

[Splendor]

Shivering Touch is an incredibly broken 3rd level spell. It's in Frostburn and Spell Compendium.

What page is Shivering Touch on in the Spell Compendium, because it's not in mine. Is it under a different name?

[Sinfire Titan]

What page is Shivering Touch on in the Spell Compendium, because it's not in mine. Is it under a different name?

He's mistaken. Shivering Touch instead appears in Frostburn twice, not in Frostburn and the Spell Compendium.

[gorfnab]

Not exactly broken but still an extremely powerful build to be aware of in E6: Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine #336 or Here under Basic Classes Page 91) Wildshape Variant with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order

[Bosh]

Nobody's mentioned Pun Pun, I'm very disappointed in all of you.

[sonofzeal]

Nobody's mentioned Pun Pun, I'm very disappointed in all of you.

Pun-Pun's been around almost five years now. The joke's old, people don't care as much as they did. I think that's for the best, really.

[DragoonWraith]

If you can ever read Manipulate Form and not realize that it needs to be banned outright.... well, maybe Wizards is hiring.

[Calimehter]

No 4th level spells is a "hard" line I'm drawing for this campaign, so no combo that permits it would be allowed. I thought I saw another one of those somewhere (UA?) that I cannot now recall . . . but no matter.

Interesting combos that I hadn't heard of before, so good to know to keep an eye out for. Thanks for the feedback so far!

[SurlySeraph]

Not exactly broken but still an extremely powerful build to be aware of in E6: Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine #336 or Here under Basic Classes Page 91) Wildshape Variant with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order

In a similar vein, Cleric 4/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin 1 with Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order.

@V:Yep. I meant Cleric 4, and have edited accordingly.

[sonofzeal]

In a similar vein, Cleric 5/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin with Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order.

Er, doesn't that require 7 levels?

[Akal Saris]

I "broke" my E6 character by making a variant of the "supermount" build with a paladin 5/beastmaster 1 - I think with the special 3 E6 bonus feats at 6th that out party had, I managed to have a 19HD celestial dire wolf mount by advancing the mount/AC class features and the wild bond feat. Having a pet with more HP than your entire party combined (and almost more BAB as well) was pretty crazy.

Of course, in the end the character and his mount were just a pair of meat shields after all. But in a bit I'd have been able to get the dragon mount feat too.

[Sophismata]

In a similar vein, Cleric 4/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin 1 with Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order.

Prestige Paladin advances your cleric spells, rather than give you Paladin spells and Paladin spellcasting. Sadly, the combo does not work.

[Eldariel]

The various single-class capstones are a nice idea; Fighter getting access to Improved Critical, Weapon Mastery and such is a nice boon for making do with 6 Fighter-levels (of course, since you can just take Dungeoncrasher, those levels don't even suck).


And yeah, in E6, I'd say by far the most powerful class is Druid, especially Druid 6; you get your bonus Fighter, you get just enough Wildshape to stay Wildshaped most of the day on 6 (Extra Wildshape can eventually be picked up as a bonus feat to truly cover all day), you get great spellcasting and overall, you get to be a fcking Druid.

Though Monk 1/Druid 5 isn't bad either as getting Monk's Belt or Wild Armor can be tricksy (that is, impossible through conventional means; both require level 5 spells) in E6 and 5HD Wildshape is still quite good; though you need to wait until Extra Wildshape or two to truly maintain Wildshape all day. Just 5 hours doesn't cut it. Still, lacking access to 6HD forms is frankly no real problem as practically all of the good Medium forms are 5HD or smaller; and you still get level 3 spells and can just pick up Practiced Spellcaster for the last point of caster level so yea. Natural Bond would pick Animal Companion up to speed (although if DM allows it to count against the negative adjustment, this is a loss).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Monk 1/Druid 5 also has the advantage of accessing useful skills in Sense Motive (thanks to Druid's single-minded Wisdom-focus, it's naturally awesome for them), Balance (5 ranks means a LOT less headache especially if working with efficient low-level Wizards using Grease & al.) & Tumble (which is obviously very useful on its own right).

Unlike your average Monk, thanks to Wildshape and casting, a Druid doesn't have the MAD inherent to Monk and thus can actually afford the Int to enable investing in these skills while still getting the ones Druid wants too. Hide/Move Silently isn't horrible either especially since many Wildshape-forms can provide bonuses to these and make acquiring the Dex easy when desired.

EDIT#2: I totally forgot, use fractional BAB and saves. First of all, that makes more sense and second of all, it prevents access to things with high Save-prerequisites (you could access through multiclassing by standard rules).

[DragoonWraith]

Not very many things you can get through Save stacking, though...

[Starbuck_II]

Prestige Paladin advances your cleric spells, rather than give you Paladin spells and Paladin spellcasting. Sadly, the combo does not work.

Nope the book (not the SRD) says you gain access to Paladin spells.