Lowering CR/Rasing CR [3.5]

[RagnaroksChosen]

I've heard alot of talk about CR's not being appropriate. Just out of curiosity does any one have any examples of monsters who's crs are not right?

Edit:
Just talking about the SRD.

[magic9mushroom]

I've heard alot of talk about CR's not being appropriate. Just out of curiosity does any one have any examples of monsters who's crs are not right?

Adamantine Horror was brought up in the last thread. At will Disintegrate, Disjunction and Implosion at CR 9.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Err SRD only please.

[BRC]

Hydras.
A 5 headed hydra, CR4, get's Five attacks as a standard action. Pyro/Cryohydras deal 15d6 with a save every 1d4 rounds at CR 6.

[FishAreWet]

Dragons are usually under CRed because they're Big Bads.

[magic9mushroom]

Err SRD only please.

...Ok.

Why don't you check the last thread, which I started, called "Horribly under-CR encounters"?

[Starbuck_II]

That damn Crab: CR 2, grapple +19. Yeah, I want to see a level 2 +19.
Edit: Darn, not SRD.

[RagnaroksChosen]

...Ok.

Why don't you check the last thread, which I started, called "Horribly under-CR encounters"?

I'm looking for under and over cr'ed encounters. Though i will look at your thread thank you.


FishAreWet: what do you meen there under cr'ed?

[sonofzeal]

Compare a Polar Bear to a Sea Cat.

Does that help?

[lsfreak]

For the most part, single monsters are under-CR'd. One monster just can't compete with 4+ guys wailing away at it. Some monsters, and sometimes the right situations, can balance things out or over-CR the monster, but in general 1-versus-4 doesn't work well.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Compare a Polar Bear to a Sea Cat.

Does that help?

I don't know there pritty close...
slight differences ... the polarbear is better don't get me wrong but is the sea cat weak enough to get droped a cr?

[sonofzeal]

I don't know there pritty close...
slight differences ... the polarbear is better don't get me wrong but is the sea cat weak enough to get droped a cr?

The difference between the two is pretty huge. Both have claw/claw/bite, but the Polar Bear has more hp, way more accurate attacks, and does way more damage. They're the same size, same combat style, both semi-aquatic, same CR, but the Polar Bear will rip the Sea Cat to absolute shreds in almost any context, and be a far more dangerous adversary against almost any team. And it still dies horribly against anything with DR, or Levitate, or Int damage.

The point of those two is to illustrate that CR covers a fairly substantial range. I'm not sure whether the Sea Cat should be CR 3, or if the Polar Bear could be CR 5, but the fact that it's a difficult question to answer is telling.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The difference between the two is pretty huge. Both have claw/claw/bite, but the Polar Bear has more hp, way more accurate attacks, and does way more damage. They're the same size, same combat style, both semi-aquatic, same CR, but the Polar Bear will rip the Sea Cat to absolute shreds in almost any context, and be a far more dangerous adversary against almost any team. And it still dies horribly against anything with DR, or Levitate, or Int damage.

The point of those two is to illustrate that CR covers a fairly substantial range. I'm not sure whether the Sea Cat should be CR 3, or if the Polar Bear could be CR 5, but the fact that it's a difficult question to answer is telling.

actualy the damage isn't far off(the bear doing 34 and the cat doing 32) However the hp difference is only 17 and the bears easyer to hit.
both have decent attack bonus's, honestly in a strait up fight it could go eaither way dealing just average damage the bear will win but he will by 2 hp.




though seeing how the enviromental differences between the two its harder to compair... both have swim speads but

[ericgrau]

Hydras.
A 5 headed hydra, CR4, get's Five attacks as a standard action. Pyro/Cryohydras deal 15d6 with a save every 1d4 rounds at CR 6.

Five attacks at +6 AB. Only one of them actually hits the fighter. Nevertheless the fast healing and regenerating heads are brutal if the party isn't prepared. If a level 4 fighter follows the discouraged method of hitting the regenerating body, he indeed fails to hurt it. If a fighter follows the recommended method of severing heads he averages 0.75 removed per round and they grow back at the rate of 0.8 per round. If a fighter or a party of 4 makes their DC 15/20/25 knowledge(nature) check to learn one or more hydra abilities, and they bring both sundering and fire, then its moderate damage output becomes gradually diminished, its regeneration negated and it becomes a little over half as difficult as any other CR 4 encounter. So really it seems that hydras suffer from vampire syndrome. Very difficult if unprepared, easy otherwise.

[sonofzeal]

actualy the damage isn't far off(the bear doing 34 and the cat doing 32) However the hp difference is only 17 and the bears easyer to hit.
both have decent attack bonus's, honestly in a strait up fight it could go eaither way dealing just average damage the bear will win but he will by 2 hp.

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers. If you're including Rake - don't, because with a +9 attack bonus (compared to the Polar Bear's +13) it's not going to be hitting with both claws very often.

If they're fighting eachother.... *crunches numbers* ....adjusted for AC...

Sea Cat: 21.8125
Polar Bear: 26.05

Ignoring initiative, Polar Bear wins with almost 40% of its health left. Pretty substantial margin, that actually expands substantially against higher AC enemies where the chance of getting the Rake deteriorates substantially.

Oh, and also ignoring Grapple, which is a situationally good tactic for the Polar Bear but much less so for the Sea Cat.

[ericgrau]

Compare a Polar Bear to a Sea Cat.

Does that help?

The polar bear would be head and shoulders above the sea cat... except presumably you fight a polar bear on land and the sea cat underwater. When fighting underwater you get a -2 to hit and deal half damage with weapons. The sea cat is not affected by this. Most low level control spells don't work, fire spells are often (but not always) negated, and other core damage spells are weak.

[BRC]

Five attacks at +6 AB. Only one of them actually hits the fighter. Nevertheless the fast healing and regenerating heads are brutal if the party isn't prepared. If a level 4 fighter follows the discouraged method of hitting the regenerating body, he indeed fails to hurt it. If a fighter follows the recommended method of severing heads he averages 0.75 removed per round and they grow back at the rate of 0.8 per round. If a fighter or a party of 4 makes their DC 15/20/25 knowledge(nature) check to learn one or more hydra abilities, and they bring both sundering and fire, then its moderate damage output becomes gradually diminished, its regeneration negated and it becomes a little over half as difficult as any other CR 4 encounter. So really it seems that hydras suffer from vampire syndrome. Very difficult if unprepared, easy otherwise.

Mind you, that can cover alot of things, especially if a Wizard is involved.
Skeleton can be tough if you don't regularly use bludgeoning weapons, however if you break out the hammers and holy water, they go down easily. Most things with Damage Reduction besides /magic.

And what you were talking about was less about prep and more about good tactics, which, once again, applies to alot of things.


Anyway, I find alot of monsters can be made ridiculously nasty in the right circumstances, but fail otherwise. Give anything with ranged attacks cover and distance, and it's significantly tougher. Stick a melee brute in a small room and it's a big threat, put it somewhere open and it gets pinged by ranged attacks. Goblin Rogues attacking the party, an easy fight. Goblin Rogues ambushing a party in a dark corridor with one delaying his action to interrupt the wizard's spell casting, alot tougher.

Edit: And that's not even taking Party Makeup into account. Large numbers go down easy to wizards and sorcs, but against a party without blasters they can be deadly. Two rogues can form a nasty flanking pair, but the moment they go up against one of the many things that can't be sneak attacked, half the party's damage is gone. Flyers against parties that gain alot of their damage from melee.

[sonofzeal]

The polar bear would be head and shoulders above the sea cat... except presumably you fight a polar bear on land and the sea cat underwater. When fighting underwater you get a -2 to hit and deal half damage. Most low level control spells don't work, fire spells are often (but not always) negated, and other core damage spells are weak.

Except the Polar Bear has a decent Swim speed too, and actually has a higher Swim skill check than the Sea Cat does. It does lack Hold Breath, but its Con is higher which partially balances out even that.



You can also compare a Elder Xorn to a T Rex, or a Planatar (note the 17th level cleric spellcasting) to a Cornugon (still nasty, but gimme a break).

[Tyndmyr]

Or you can compare an Orc to...anything that's CR 1/2. Hell, it beats plenty of CR 1 mobs.

At CR 1, spider swarms will utterly kill almost any other CR 1 mob head to head, and a party without blasty magic is pretty much screwed against one at level 1. Even with a caster, it could get ugly. Especially if it's say, at night, and thus, the caster can't see them till they attack.

On the other hand, a Giant bee is CR 1, and will actually kill itself trying to take out a single player of any type, even at level 1. It's also not aggressive, so this will only happen if the player actually attacks it and fails to kill it. So, these things are pretty much slow moving piles of xp.

CR is only a guideline at best.

[ericgrau]

Except the Polar Bear has a decent Swim speed too, and actually has a higher Swim skill check than the Sea Cat does. It does lack Hold Breath, but its Con is higher which partially balances out even that.



You can also compare a Elder Xorn to a T Rex, or a Planatar (note the 17th level cleric spellcasting) to a Cornugon (still nasty, but gimme a break).

The basic assumption for CRs is PC vs monster, not monster vs monster, and the default for a fights is on land not underwater unless necessary. If you fight a polar bear in the water the CR should be higher as it is with fighting an archer in a tower.

EDIT: As for Xorn vs Trex, I am honestly confused as to which is supposed to be tougher. They do similar damage, except the Xorn does more on a full attack, but the Xorn is slower and doesn't have improved grab. The Trex has more HP but the Xorn has more AC. There are too many advantages and disadvantages for me to tell which one is better without doing a lot more number crunching.

EDIT #2: The devil is a slightly better fighter and having roughly half of its multiple attacks per round stun with a reach weapon is pretty brutal. I mean, ya, an actual level 17 cleric would be stronger but this angel is no clericzilla so you're left with moderate fighting or cleric casting each round. I dunno, maybe with the right spells but otherwise it's only core divine casting. Both have a lot of special abilities so it's hard to tell.

[Eldariel]

From the other thread, both Allip and Shadow are extremely dangerous for their CR; Allip especially (self-healing, quite high HP, Will Save-or-Sit, great Initiative, oh and all that Incorporeality-stuff) should easily be CR 4 and even then, ability drain on such a low CR means even if it's defeated, it can cripple the party before they somehow gain access to Restoration.

Let me put this in perspective: Allip can kill Tarrasque. Without breaking a sweat. Tarrasque can't touch Allip due to not having magical weapons and Allip can't really miss T's Touch AC very easily. Ability Drain is something Big T is not immune to and it doesn't have the highest Wis ever; down it goes.

And you can check the Monkening for how a few shadows gank level 13 characters without needing to even fight...though there's more going on there, of course.


As mentioned, Dragons tend to be "under CRd" to make them more of a challenge; generally, a Dragon of a given CR is much more formidable than anything else near the same numbers. I constructed a level 1 core party of two Orc Barbarians and two Gray Elf Wizards, maximizing their capabilities to take out CR 5+ encounters and practically everything at CR5 was eminently defeatable...except the Dragons.

The Dragons were TPKs no matter how I looked at it; basically you'd need to burn most of your wealth on Tanglefoot Bags, hit, hope and that only allows you to START engaging them. The combination of flight, breath weapon, frightful presence, awesome melee capabilities and later, most crucially, spellcasting to bring this all to bear just makes them formidable. Oh, that and all-high saves + tons of HP + huge hoards (meaning they have magic item access too). So yeah, Dragons are either some of the very few properly CRd creatures or way too tough, depending on how skilled players you're dealing with (and how tactically sound you play the Dragons).

[Tehnar]

I find that demons and devils are very good for their CR. My favorites are babaus (at will darkness, dispel, see invisibility, good defense vs nearly anything), erineyes (flying, net attack that immobilizes, unholy blight at will). Other outsiders are pretty great too, these are just my favorites.

[Runestar]

While dragons are arguably very strong for their cr, there appears to be some inconsistencies amongst them.

For example, the black wyrmling dragon is cr3, yet statistically weaker than a very young white dragon (4HD, tiny to 6HD, small).

Monsters with grapple and swallow whole, such as the remorhaz, can potentially result in a TPK simply by running them as statted (spring out from ice, bite--> grapple-->swallow whole, run away, rinse and repeat). To be fair, they are fairly fragile, so with concerted focus fire, you just *might* be able to kill it at the loss of just 1 PC.

[Harperfan7]

I tend to look for reasons why something has the CR it has. Give the designers some credit.

CR 2 crab with +19 grapple? What are its init, hide/move silently, listen/spot, and speed? If its slow, they pcs can just stay away and peg away. Also, its a vermin so it literally cannot think.

Orcs being CR 1/2. Big bad attack, low will save, low AC.

Hydras = big, slow, and stupid.

A 5th level fighter often can't beat a CR 5 tough one on one, but he can think and use things they probably can't.

It's all about weaknesses.

However, some things really are stupidly under/over CRed. Just think about it before deciding.

[RagnaroksChosen]

From the other thread, both Allip and Shadow are extremely dangerous for their CR; Allip especially (self-healing, quite high HP, Will Save-or-Sit, great Initiative, oh and all that Incorporeality-stuff) should easily be CR 4 and even then, ability drain on such a low CR means even if it's defeated, it can cripple the party before they somehow gain access to Restoration.

Let me put this in perspective: Allip can kill Tarrasque. Without breaking a sweat. Tarrasque can't touch Allip due to not having magical weapons and Allip can't really miss T's Touch AC very easily. Ability Drain is something Big T is not immune to and it doesn't have the highest Wis ever; down it goes.

And you can check the Monkening for how a few shadows gank level 13 characters without needing to even fight...though there's more going on there, of course.


As mentioned, Dragons tend to be "under CRd" to make them more of a challenge; generally, a Dragon of a given CR is much more formidable than anything else near the same numbers. I constructed a level 1 core party of two Orc Barbarians and two Gray Elf Wizards, maximizing their capabilities to take out CR 5+ encounters and practically everything at CR5 was eminently defeatable...except the Dragons.

The Dragons were TPKs no matter how I looked at it; basically you'd need to burn most of your wealth on Tanglefoot Bags, hit, hope and that only allows you to START engaging them. The combination of flight, breath weapon, frightful presence, awesome melee capabilities and later, most crucially, spellcasting to bring this all to bear just makes them formidable. Oh, that and all-high saves + tons of HP + huge hoards (meaning they have magic item access too). So yeah, Dragons are either some of the very few properly CRd creatures or way too tough, depending on how skilled players you're dealing with (and how tactically sound you play the Dragons).

I wish the GM's that i played with did that... most dragons are push overs... i know its the gm not the monster... cuz they seem to do stupid ****....

[sofawall]

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers. If you're including Rake - don't, because with a +9 attack bonus (compared to the Polar Bear's +13) it's not going to be hitting with both claws very often.

Rend, not Rake. They are very different.

[Tehnar]

Generally what you want to do with monsters, is to have more of them, then a single strong monsters. Not only do you negate the PCs action advantage, but the monsters themselves can have various synergies making the encounter more difficult then the sum of its parts.

I've had a lot of fun running tow shadow dragons against the PCs. In the end I think they did much better, and provided more challenge (and fun), then a single albeit stronger one would.

[sonofzeal]

The basic assumption for CRs is PC vs monster, not monster vs monster, and the default for a fights is on land not underwater unless necessary. If you fight a polar bear in the water the CR should be higher as it is with fighting an archer in a tower.

Quite. However, the point I was trying to make was that you can't consider Sea Cat being aquatic as a balance factor, since the Polar Bear does just fine there too. The point was that in almost every relevant way, the Polar Bear is far more dangerous than the Sea Cat, and measurably so, but share the same CR.

EDIT: As for Xorn vs Trex, I am honestly confused as to which is supposed to be tougher. They do similar damage, except the Xorn does more on a full attack, but the Xorn is slower and doesn't have improved grab. The Trex has more HP but the Xorn has more AC. There are too many advantages and disadvantages for me to tell which one is better without doing a lot more number crunching.

The Xorn has more AC, has DR, resistances, immunites, tremorsense, earthglide, Great Cleave, Power Attack, and Improved Bull Rush. The T-Rex has... Low-Light Vision, and Track.

The Xorn has way more AC, a bigger attack bonus, does more damage on a single attack, and does way more damage on a full attack. The T-Rex has... Improved Grab.

I honestly can't imagine how this is in any way a fair contest.

EDIT #2: The devil is a slightly better fighter and having roughly half of its multiple attacks per round stun with a reach weapon is pretty brutal. I mean, ya, an actual level 17 cleric would be stronger but this angel is no clericzilla so you're left with moderate fighting or cleric casting each round. I dunno, maybe with the right spells but otherwise it's only core divine casting. Both have a lot of special abilities so it's hard to tell.

Er.... how is a lvl 17 cleric stronger than an angel with lvl 17 cleric spellcasting and a massive tone of other freebies and a +12 racial bonus to Wisdom? The Planetar is as clericzilla as anyone could hope for. If a level 17 cleric can beat the devil, the Planetar can absolutely mop the floor with him. Remember that the stat block gives the numbers before NPC-wealth-appropriate magic items and any pre-buffs (and many monsters include pre-buffs in their tactics section).

[Runestar]

From experience, I find that outsiders are weaker than their cr tends to let on because DMs tend to forget to apply some of their special abilities.

Can't really blame them, they really have too many abilities to keep track of. Between dr, sr, resistances, immunities, a laundry list of SLAs of assorted durations and misc abilities (such as regen/fast healing), something is bound to slip through the cracks.

The Xorn has way more AC, a bigger attack bonus, does more damage on a single attack, and does way more damage on a full attack. The T-Rex has... Improved Grab.

A typical fight begins with the T-rex charging into battle and biting the closest PC, which initiates a grapple and paves the way for swallow whole next round, thus removing him from combat (and good luck to the fighter who did not pack a light weapon). Let's see a xorn do this with a full attack.

Over the next 2-3 rounds, the other PCs focus-fire on the T-rex. The T-rex has the option of either fleeing, or attacking another PC. It is a race to kill him before the PC(s) inside gets digested. The T-rex has a lot of hp, so it can afford to play the waiting game.

All this time, the T-rex is dealing an automatic 25 damage to the PC inside and 24 damage average to anyone else it bites (49 total on average). Meanwhile, the party is effectively 1 man down, so it evens out the action economy imbalance somewhat.

The xorn deals more damage on average (54) but is dependent on the full-attack action (so its damage drops significantly against mobile PCs), and everyone in the party gets to attack (meaning it goes down faster).

Be very careful of monsters with swallow whole. Their stats are built around abusing this ability. It is like a SoD without the save.

[sonofzeal]

A typical fight begins with the T-rex charging into battle and biting the closest PC, which initiates a grapple and paves the way for swallow whole next round, thus removing him from combat (and good luck to the fighter who did not pack a light weapon). Let's see a xorn do this with a full attack.

Over the next 2-3 rounds, the other PCs focus-fire on the T-rex. The T-rex has the option of either fleeing, or attacking another PC. It is a race to kill him before the PC(s) inside gets digested. The T-rex has a lot of hp, so it can afford to play the waiting game.

All this time, the T-rex is dealing an automatic 25 damage to the PC inside and 24 damage average to anyone else it bites (49 total on average). Meanwhile, the party is effectively 1 man down, so it evens out the action economy imbalance somewhat.

The xorn deals more damage on average (54) but is dependent on the full-attack action (so its damage drops significantly against mobile PCs), and everyone in the party gets to attack (meaning it goes down faster).

Be very careful of monsters with swallow whole. Their stats are built around abusing this ability. It is like a SoD without the save.

I've always hated Swallow Whole - not because it's nasty, but because it isn't. Being eaten, by RAW, is mostly just a momentary inconvenience. Cutting your way out is horribly easy for most characters, as pretty much everyone is proficient in daggers and has little to no reason not to carry one. A Sor/Wiz might have trouble cutting their way out, but they have magic for that. For many creatures, being inside them is sometimes safer than being outside them, and it takes fewer actions for you to get yourself out than it the monster to put you in - and you've got teammates who are all taking their actions in the meantime.

As for the Xorn, it's got Earthglide, Tremorsense, and Reach. It can attack from underground (only counterable on Ready Actions), and can maneuver itself under the party to full-attack on the surprise round. It's a little slow, but if the party has a Dwarf or Halfling then it can almost certainly keep up and maintain a nigh-unbeatable hit-and-run game as long as it wants to, unless the entire party has Flight - but in that case the T Rex is dead, and the Xorn is merely bypassed.

Even if it just sits there and fights like a brute, it's going to be fairly hard to kill at that level. Earth Glide and Tremorsense mean it should never join the fight in anything less than the surprise round (unlike the T-Rex, which has the disadvantage of pretty much auto-failing any stealth checks ever), and it deal a nice amount of hurt per round in return.

SoL work on it as always, but for a CR 8 Bruiser you could do a whole lot worse than an Elder Xorn, and a whole lot better than a T-Rex.