[OWoD]Initiative

[Iceforge]

I've grown curious about how people do Initiative when they play World of Darkness games, and I am limiting this only to old World of Darkness due to not knowing if the initiative system changed in the new World of Darkness, as I have never read those rules myself.

But in every single group I played oWoD with (mostly VtM) the initiative rules have not been used as written, but instead a copy of the DnD initiative has been used.

Let me demonstrate with 3 players who does not have celerity to show what I mean:

The DnD Way (Which I have seen used always):
1. Players roll initiative, lets say Player A has highest, then B and last is C.
2. Player A declares and does his action
3. Player B declares and does his action
4. Player C declares and does his action
5. Go back to step 2 and repeat until combat is over.

The oWoD rules way: (which I have not seen done by anyone else):
1. Players roll initiative, again, lets assume A then B then C
2. Player C declares his intended action
3. Player B declares his intended action
4. Player A declares his action and does it
5. Player B either does his previously stated action OR make a save roll to change it to adapt to player A's action (failed save = must do intended)
6. Player C either does his previously stated action OR make a save roll to change it to adapt to player A and B's actions. (again, failed save = must do intended)
7. Go to step 2 and repeat until combat is over


So I am wondering, how many else are actually playing with the DnD way instead of the oWoD way and is it due to lack of understanding of the rules or out of houserules?

My clear picture is that the Storytellers just generally do not know that initiative is supposed to work this way, it seems like they almost always have tried DnD first and then only read the initiative rules until they know how to make the roll to put up an initiative order and then doesn't really bother about the rest, as they just assumed that it was done like in DnD with highest going first.

[illyrus]

We used the oWoD way when we played oWoD.

I believe the new WoD way is actually the D&D method.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Amusingly, the "correct" way to to oWoD Initiative looks suspiciously like AD&D's rules.

In any case, I imagine folks ditch the oWoD rules because they are needlessly complicated for an ostensibly "rules lite" system. Hell, I went one step further and just did "d10+(DEX+WITS) = Initiative Score" to get rid of all of the clustering that a "success test" form of Initiative produces.

[Saph]

We tried using the oWoD way last time we played oWoD. It doubled the time required to perform every combat round and added nothing to the game whatsoever. Finally we ditched it and used initiative exactly as Oracle describes.

[Iceforge]

Amusingly, the "correct" way to to oWoD Initiative looks suspiciously like AD&D's rules.

In any case, I imagine folks ditch the oWoD rules because they are needlessly complicated for an ostensibly "rules lite" system. Hell, I went one step further and just did "d10+(DEX+WITS) = Initiative Score" to get rid of all of the clustering that a "success test" form of Initiative produces.

D10+dex+wits = initiative score is standard, as far as I know, so no short-cut there?

The problem with the DnD method is that the entire combat systems balance is based around re-acting.

Let me show an example based on actual combat that happened between me and a fellow player, in which the outcomes would have been really different with standard rules than they were with the DnD rules:

Player A (the other guy) had highest initiative
I had lowest initiative, no celerity, but Zulu form (+3 str/dex/sta)

I was specialized in brawl with "Clinch"

So player A acts by attacking me, I do NOT dodge and he hits and does some bashing damage that I soak with my 7 sta
I then make an attack roll, and get him into a clinch.

That is the first round, the result of which would have been the same no matter what, except he might have split his action into a dodge+attack if he had known I would have clinched before he decided on his action, but then again, he should have known I would do some kind of attack anyway.

Now it is his turn again, and he must break free of my clinch.

If he fails, it is my turn and I clinch him some more to damage him.
If he succeeded, he would get out of my clinch, but then I would just attack to regain my clinch on him.

If we had played by the oWoD rules standard, I would have had to declare my action in advance, which I wouldn't be able to do.

Actually, re-reading the rules just now, I can see that I can actually only abort my action for a defensive action, which means that each time he escaped, he would be allowed to attack me, but due to doing it the DnD way, he usually just got out of my clinch only for me to put him back into a clinch before he could use his newly gained freedom for anything.

EDIT:

The new result in this combat was, that he ended up having to split his actions every time to get out and attack me, giving him 2 less dice to break out (meaning he often didn't break out) and then 3 less dice to land a hit on me.

That is 5 less dice over 2 rolls than what he should have had, if we had followed the rules by the letter.

Assuming he would have split it into 3 actions, to break out, attack and dodge, he would by DnD rules loose 3 dice from breaking out, 4 dice from his attack and 5 dice from his dodge (assuming that was his priority), while with standard rules, he would only split up his attack/dodge and have had 0 penalty to breaking out, 2 penalty to attack and 3 penalty to dodge, a net difference of 7 dices in his effectiveness against me

[Oracle_Hunter]

D10+dex+wits = initiative score is standard, as far as I know, so no short-cut there?

I meant d10+(Dex value)+(Wits value), so "16" would be a possible value instead of "3 successes." IIRC the oWoD method was a Success Test against TN 6 - and a disaster at that

[Iceforge]

I meant d10+(Dex value)+(Wits value), so "16" would be a possible value instead of "3 successes." IIRC the oWoD method was a Success Test against TN 6 - and a disaster at that

Nope, it is D10 + the value of Dexterity+Witts, at least in oWoD 2nd Edition, which is the rulebook I have, I do not know if they changed that between 1st and 2nd edition through

[Riffington]

In most of the editions it was Wits+Alertness, or Wits+ [most appropriate skill] where that skill was Alertness if you were reacting to surprise; Firearms if in a shootout; Brawl if in a barfight; etc.

The question of "D10+ those" or "that many dice with Difficulty 4" was not super important.

The "should we declare in reverse order" is important: it adds a lot of time, and was a good thing to discard except in very specific situations.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Oracle Hunter

"d10+(DEX+WITS) = Initiative Score" to get rid of all of the clustering that a "success test" form of Initiative produces.

We use WITS + ALERTNESS+D10

Then we do

Posted by Iceforge

The oWoD rules way: (which I have not seen done by anyone else):
1. Players roll initiative, again, lets assume A then B then C
2. Player C declares his intended action
3. Player B declares his intended action
4. Player A declares his action and does it
5. Player B either does his previously stated action OR make a save roll to change it to adapt to player A's action (failed save = must do intended)
6. Player C either does his previously stated action OR make a save roll to change it to adapt to player A and B's actions. (again, failed save = must do intended)
7. Go to step 2 and repeat until combat is over

Apart from there is no Save to adapt it

[RebelRogue]

Amusingly, the "correct" way to to oWoD Initiative looks suspiciously like AD&D's rules.

Yes and no. IIRC, in AD&D you technically have to declare your action in secret, because the speed modifier is applied as you roll. We always just assumed people didn't cheat.

Nope, it is D10 + the value of Dexterity+Witts, at least in oWoD 2nd Edition, which is the rulebook I have, I do not know if they changed that between 1st and 2nd edition through

Yes, this is the revised oWoD initiative rules. Before the revision you rolled Wits+Alertness and counted succeses. Which led to the problem of people having their dice pools reduced to zero because of injury. Were these people supposed not to act or what?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, this is the revised oWoD initiative rules. Before the revision you rolled Wits+Alertness and counted succeses. Which led to the problem of people having their dice pools reduced to zero because of injury. Were these people supposed not to act or what?

Thank god!

I was becoming worried that I was quite insane, having imagined the very rules I quoted

[Jarveiyan]

Thats right, however in that method the person who had the lowest number acted first and was the last to declare their action. So you rolled wits+alertness dc 6 I do believe(?) then highest to lowest declared their actions with the lowest number going first.