Swift Hunter tips + archery

[dextercorvia]

If your DM is like Siosilvar, then dip into two levels of Specialist Wizard (Divination) since they are all divination spells. You would need an intelligence of at least 11. Get a ring of Wizardry I. You can then memorize each spell 3 times per day, and that's without a high intelligence bonus. If your Intelligence is higher, you can then memorize more as needed.

If you have a lower intelligence, then pick up Sorcerer instead. Again, 11 charisma needed and you're good to go.

Don't forget that you can also make scrolls and/or potions of each spell. It wouldn't cost much to make a scroll or potion of each of these spells.

The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

[Siosilvar]

[Edit]: Potions are standard action to drink. Scrolls are standard actions to read. Making a 1 round duration spell into either would be silly.

Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).

And potions of personal spells are right out, so none of them will work.

[dextercorvia]

Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).

And potions of personal spells are right out, so none of them will work.

The RC does change it so that spell completion and spell trigger items take the same casting time as the original.

[Kansaschaser]

And then you'd pay in actions. They're all swift/immediate, so you can only use one of them per turn, and Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot only last one round, so you couldn't benefit from both (unless you're RKV or similar).

Then you could, as a focused diviner, cast them a grand total of 4 times a day.


By the by, were there any spells with duration of 1 round (not round/level) around when the guidelines were written? It seems the former should sport a larger cost multiplier.

[Edit]: Potions are standard action to drink. Scrolls are standard actions to read. Making a 1 round duration spell into either would be silly.

That was uncalled for.

EDIT: Though the idea is fine... you're using 2 levels and 20,000gp to avoid spending twice that for the same effects but constant. Who's too expensive now? You only get 20 levels in your career (and usually not even that).

What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.

You might as well just go full spellcaster to level 14 to get 7th level spells then have the effect persisted. Then from level 15-20, do Arcane Archer. Augment your effectiveness with spells to make up for the fact that you didn't take any Scout/Ranger for the Swift Hunter stuff.

[Kansaschaser]

The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

Oh, good one Dextercorvia. You're my new best friend on here. That's a pretty good combo for the Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter.

[Greenish]

Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).

Ah, right, I didn't remember it was also for spell completion items.

Well, pulling the scroll up is still a move action, unless you have that fancy scrollcase.

[Edit]:

What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.

Yours were items that duplicated persisted 1st level spells, which, as you observed, are 7th level spells.

[Grelna the Blue]

All the build so far have only included 1 lvl of Scout, prolly to avoid unneeded BaB-loss. However, the feat Swift Hunter requires Skirmish (+1d6 damage, +1AC) which is obtained at Scout 4.

Probably worth mentioning that if you're already committed to taking 1 level in Scout, you don't lose any more BAB until 5th level...

[Kansaschaser]

Ah, right, I didn't remember it was also for spell completion items.

Well, pulling the scroll up is still a move action, unless you have that fancy scrollcase.

[Edit]:Yours were items that duplicated persisted 1st level spells, which, as you observed, are 7th level spells.

The Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic is 5,200 gold and it has persistant Read Magic and Comprehend Languages. A 1st level spell and a 0th level spell.

8,000 gold still seems like the right price for Guided Shot and Sniper Shot.

[Greenish]

The Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic is 5,200 gold and it has persistant Read Magic and Comprehend Languages. A 1st level spell and a 0th level spell.

There's a difference between 10min/level non-combat spells and 1 round combat spells. Having the former always active is a nifty lil' thing, having the latter always active is very, very valuable.

[Siosilvar]

What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.

A 1st level spell that duplicates an 11th level feat for 1 round.

Since you're so set in going by the guidelines, you should note that they're also intended to be compared to other items, even before you price with those guidelines.

30k for an 11th level ability is cheap when you can spend 25k to get a 2nd level ability (Evasion).

EDIT: By your interpretation, a continuous True Strike effect would still be that 8000gp. +20 to attack, by itself, is worth 400,000gp.

[Kansaschaser]

A 1st level spell that duplicates an 11th level feat for 1 round.

Since you're so set in going by the guidelines, you should note that they're also intended to be compared to other items, even before you price with those guidelines.

30k for an 11th level ability is cheap when you can spend 25k to get a 2nd level ability (Evasion).

EDIT: By your interpretation, a continuous True Strike effect would still be that 8000gp. +20 to attack, by itself, is worth 400,000gp.

True Strike only lasts for one attack, it dose not have a duration. Therefore it cannot be made persistant. Also, the guidelines do not allow for the calculation of True Strike as a continuous item.

Even if someone wanted to make a Continuous Item of True Strike in my world, they would only get the +20 attack bonus on one attack per day. It would still only be 8,000 gold if it could be made continuous.

[Kansaschaser]

The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

So, this is the new theoretical build to avoid having to spend outragous ammounts of money on items.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16.

Persist Sniper Shot, Guided Shot, and Arrow Mind using Divine Metamagic (Persist). You still get 4 favored enemies and full Skirmish since Skirmish stops at 19th level.

[Siosilvar]

True Strike only lasts for one attack, it dose not have a duration. Therefore it cannot be made persistant. Also, the guidelines do not allow for the calculation of True Strike as a continuous item.

Even if someone wanted to make a Continuous Item of True Strike in my world, they would only get the +20 attack bonus on one attack per day. It would still only be 8,000 gold if it could be made continuous.

[Devil's Advocate] Oh, okay then. Use-activated true strike sword for 2000gp. It's cheaper and automatically activates with every swing! [/Devil's Advocate]

True Strike was just an example. My point is

...match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines...

that you have to compare to other items and what you actually get.

EDIT: As an aside, could you please use the edit button instead of double posting?

Double Posting
Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.

[Fastmover]

I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.

[true_shinken]

I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.

Duskblade/Arcane Archer on a Swift Hunter? I can't imagine how this would be good, actually.

[Akal Saris]

So, this is the new theoretical build to avoid having to spend outragous ammounts of money on items.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16.

Persist Sniper Shot, Guided Shot, and Arrow Mind using Divine Metamagic (Persist). You still get 4 favored enemies and full Skirmish since Skirmish stops at 19th level.

Think about how many turn undead attempts that will require. That's 21 turn attempts, before using any for travel devotion, and you probably want about ~9 attempts for 4 combats/day of travel devotion. So 30 turn attempts. That's either outrageous amounts of nightstick stacking, which few DMs will allow, or all of your feats besides swift hunter, extend, persist, and DMM (Persist).

I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.

Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20， CL 20

[Forged Fury]

Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20， CL 20

I think that's where we were all confused. It's not a Swift Hunter build.

[Kansaschaser]

Think about how many turn undead attempts that will require. That's 21 turn attempts, before using any for travel devotion, and you probably want about ~9 attempts for 4 combats/day of travel devotion. So 30 turn attempts. That's either outrageous amounts of nightstick stacking, which few DMs will allow, or all of your feats besides swift hunter, extend, persist, and DMM (Persist).



Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20， CL 20

In this case, you would probably want to find some way of getting a pretty high Charisma for extra turn attempts.

Play a Venerable character (-6 STR, DEX, CON, +3 INT, WIS, CHA), get Zen Archery so you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for archery. Then just optimize your Charisma for maximum turn attempts. You may also have to take some Extra Turning feats.

Edit: In most builds I've seen, they use Greater Manyshot so you don't have to use the Travel Devotion to get your extra Skirmish.

Example: Move Action - Move 20 feet.
Standard Action - Greater Manyshot (4 arrows)

With the magical enchantment of splitting on the bow, that is 8 arrows, all doing skirmish damage.

[Fastmover]

Sorry I should have clarified better, but thanks Akal :D That's the one.

[Forged Fury]

Edit: In most builds I've seen, they use Greater Manyshot so you don't have to use the Travel Devotion to get your extra Skirmish.

A lot of us look for ways to avoid spending all those feats for the ability to skirmish on a full attack. If only PBS wasn't a pre-req for Precise Shot...

[Kansaschaser]

A lot of us look for ways to avoid spending all those feats for the ability to skirmish on a full attack. If only PBS wasn't a pre-req for Precise Shot...

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and then Greater Manyshot.

Most of these you get as bonus feats for going up in levels of Ranger. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot are all free for the Ranged Ranger.

[Forged Fury]

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and then Greater Manyshot.

Most of these you get as bonus feats for going up in levels of Ranger. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot are all free for the Ranged Ranger.

Right, but some folks prefer to take more Scout than Ranger. Rapid Shot is really the only one you need of the above if you figure out a way to get a swift action 20' move (PBS is okay, Manyshots unnecessary, and Improved Precise Shot largely replacable with the Seeking property). Obviously, the BAB and HP loss hurt, but it allows you to pick up HiPS while still being able to dip another class. If you go Ranger over Scout, you won't be able to pick HiPS up if you dip another class, barring possible PrCs.

[Kansaschaser]

Right, but some folks prefer to take more Scout than Ranger. Rapid Shot is really the only one you need of the above if you figure out a way to get a swift action 20' move (PBS is okay, Manyshots unnecessary, and Improved Precise Shot largely replacable with the Seeking property). Obviously, the BAB and HP loss hurt, but it allows you to pick up HiPS while still being able to dip another class. If you go Ranger over Scout, you won't be able to pick HiPS up if you dip another class, barring possible PrCs.

You don't need a "swift action" to move 20 feet. All you need to do is move 20 feet or more normally. Then use a standard action to use Greater Manyshot. You get to fire 4 arrows (8 with splitting enchantment on bow) and each one will do skirmish damage. That's a lot easier than trying to figure out how to get a free 20ft of movement each round.

Hide in plane sight is overrated. Pick up a ring of invisibility and boots of elvenkind.

[Greenish]

Hide in plane sight is overrated. Pick up a ring of invisibility and boots of elvenkind.

Many, many things can see through invisibility.

[Kansaschaser]

Many, many things can see through invisibility.

About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.

[Greenish]

About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.

I don't know about Plane Sight, but pumping up your Hide check 'till most anything can't match it isn't too hard.

[Forged Fury]

I don't know about Plane Sight, but pumping up your Hide check 'till most anything can't match it isn't too hard.

Agree with Greenish, it's an opposed check. It really depends on how much you choose to max your Hide skill. You really have to have an opponent with an equally high Spot skill or some other form of detecting you to be pinpointed. It's really quite good.

The key thing is to figure out how to move 20' as a swift action and still maintain a +16 BAB. Add Rapid Shot and Haste/Speed and you're up to 6 attacks/round with skirmish. Splitting makes it 12 arrows.

[Kansaschaser]

Agree with Greenish, it's an opposed check. It really depends on how much you choose to max your Hide skill. You really have to have an opponent with an equally high Spot skill or some other form of detecting you to be pinpointed. It's really quite good.

Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, Detect Thoughts, Detect Hostil Intent, Detect Magic, etc....

Even without rolling an opposed check, there are many things that can get past Hide in Plane Sight.

Plus, if you really want Hide in Plane Sight, just wait one more level and you've got it on this build.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16. At level 21 you'd have Hide in Plane Sight.

[Eldariel]

About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.

No. See Invisibility is a second level spell. And available on common magic items like Hand of Glory which you'd want for the extra Ring-slot anyways. With Darkstalker Hide can also protect you from Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight and so on. Furthermore, many outsiders have True Seeing active constantly, and Invisibility doesn't hide your magic auras making it meh against Detect Magic, Aura Sight and such. Oh, and Hide generally goes hand-in-hand with high Move Silently; Invisibility cannot stop Listen from pinpointing you (+20 DC) and tons of creatures have high natural Listen. Silence is not a Wizard-spell, and is an AoE which disrupts your casting, and makes you somewhat easy to detect anyways if someone ends up in the AoE and realizes no sounds originate from there.

Invisibility is very good but higher up, you really need Superior Invisibility or HiPS+Darkstalker for somewhat reliable stealth. Invisibility still has its uses but being entirely undetectable is not one of them. Oh, and Spot-checks eventually scale so you really need Hide to avoid them. This is especially true with high HD monsters like Dragons.


Far as custom magic items go, no. Getting any spell permanently from a magic item isn't something you can rely on. The guidelines are just that, guidelines, and the DM honestly should be the one making those, not the player. Your character should be able to provide the spells he needs himself; you shouldn't need casters for that. This is why Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is so very key; you get all the spells you want from the first 5 levels and have enough slots to greatly utilize them. Though even just standard Ranger can make decent use out of them.


Personal favorite Swift Hunter-build is Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Unseen Seer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 - Stalker of Kharesh gets HiPS on 4.

[Kansaschaser]

Personal favorite Swift Hunter-build is Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Unseen Seer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 - Stalker of Kharesh gets HiPS on 4.

Where did you get the "Mystic Ranger"?