Why is Glitterdust a Will save?

[HailDiscordia]

Just what the title says. It's a conjuration so it is making something appear, so you would think that it is something that a player can leap out of the way of. But it's a Will save, but it is not mind affecting. It makes no sense to me. It is such a powerful spell to begin with and most opponents are going to have a Will save that is lesser than Reflex, so that makes it even better. It's annoying.

[Saph]

The text of Glitterdust seems to imply that it blinds people by clogging up their eyes with glittery particles.

So it should really be a Reflex save (to shut your eyes in time) or maybe a Fort save (to tough it out), but I can't think of any good justification for a blindness effect working off Will.

[Sophismata]

Inconsistent Design.

[JeminiZero]

The text of Glitterdust seems to imply that it blinds people by clogging up their eyes with glittery particles.

So it should really be a Reflex save (to shut your eyes in time) or maybe a Fort save (to tough it out), but I can't think of any good justification for a blindness effect working off Will.

Closing your eyes in time should actually be a simple enough matter. The will save represents you successfully resisting the lure of watching the pretty shiny sparkling dust, to do so.

[Runestar]

Slow is a will save as well, but not mind-affecting.

My guess is that if you focus well enough, you just might be able to see through the golden sparkles (thus negating the blindness). So it is a will save as it involves how well your brain processes the distraction?

[Starbuck_II]

Slow is a will save as well, but not mind-affecting.

My guess is that if you focus well enough, you just might be able to see through the golden sparkles (thus negating the blindness). So it is a will save as it involves how well your brain processes the distraction?

But Golems don't have brains... unless you distract the elemental binding it.

[Spiryt]

Almost any hostile spell or other threat should logicaly involve reflex to avoid it, fortitude to resist whatever bad is happening to you, and will to survive it mentally to.

It's just D&D, though, so things are anyway a bit abstract.

[Kobold-Bard]

Your force of Will creates a force field around your eyeballs that deflect the dust. Obviously

[ericgrau]

You should know from movies that anyone with a strong will has the ability to stare really hard.

[HailDiscordia]

I hate the idea of banning or even nerfing anything that's core (yes, I know that there is a ton of material that is justified to do so), but Glitterdust drives me insane. For a single 2nd level spell you can blind a group and reveal invisible creatures, and the save makes no sense. In the next campaign I run it's going to be a Reflex save.

[ericgrau]

If it helps any check out the blindness/darkness/invisibility rules some time. Blindness is little more than a 50% miss chance (25% with blindfight) for anything with even a moderate listen modifier. Or a horrible listen modifier can still get the general direction of attacks and spellcasting letting you land area effects.

[d13]

I currently run Glitterdust and Slow (being the ones mentioned in the thread), as Fort saves, among others.
My group seems to be OK with that; nobody has complained yet.

[valadil]

It's bright and glaring and thus, painful to look at. But if you can suck it up and keep your eyes open you can see through it.

[Koury]

I'd say reflex doesn't make much more sense. You succeed and move out of the area? So free move?

You pass and close your eyes in time? Awesome, you still can't see. Open them again and you still have particles everywhere.

How does reflex make any sense either?

[Sanguine]

I'd say reflex doesn't make much more sense. You succeed and move out of the area? So free move?

You pass and close your eyes in time? Awesome, you still can't see. Open them again and you still have particles everywhere.

How does reflex make any sense either?

You turn around, now all of the particles are on your back.

[Lycanthromancer]

Telekinesis?

[Koury]

You turn around, now all of the particles are on your back.

I'm pretty sure they fill the entire square.

Not that this is worth arguring about

[Runestar]

If it helps any check out the blindness/darkness/invisibility rules some time. Blindness is little more than a 50% miss chance (25% with blindfight) for anything with even a moderate listen modifier. Or a horrible listen modifier can still get the general direction of attacks and spellcasting letting you land area effects.

It also decreases your attack rolls, increases the attacks rolls of people attacking you, and makes you flat-footed (paving the way for consistent sneak attacks).

Heck, I will probably heighten this every chance I get. It is will, but not mind-affecting, so many creatures will continue to be affected by it even at higher lvs.

[ericgrau]

It also decreases your attack rolls, increases the attacks rolls of people attacking you, and makes you flat-footed (paving the way for consistent sneak attacks).

It doesn't decrease your attack rolls. As for the last 2 items, not if you have blind fight. That's a favorite of dragons and maybe other high level creatures. Even melee sneak attacks are stopped. Otherwise without blind fight yeah they have a +2 to hit you and you lose your dex bonus to AC; you have the 50% miss chance but no other penalties to hit. Bad but you're very far from out of the fight.

I think a lot of DMs will find relief that all their poor monsters hit by a glitterdust are only half gone and the tougher ones are merely inconvenienced.

[Admiral Squish]

It doesn't decrease your attack rolls. As for the last 2 items, not if you have blind fight. That's a favorite of dragons and maybe other high level creatures. Even melee sneak attacks are stopped. Otherwise without blind fight yeah they have a +2 to hit you and you lose your dex bonus to AC; you have the 50% miss chance but no other penalties to hit. Bad but you're very far from out of the fight.

I think a lot of DMs will find relief that all their poor monsters hit by a glitterdust are only half gone.

Who takes blindfight anyway?

[ericgrau]

It's listed as a favorite of dragons under their monster description. The list of favorites isn't too long and dragons get a lot of feats. About 50 other major monsters like the tarrasque also have it (he also auto passes his listen checks too, btw). I think more PCs would take it too if they knew the blindness/invisibility/etc. rules; I do know at least a couple people that love it.

[Boci]

I hate the idea of banning or even nerfing anything that's core (yes, I know that there is a ton of material that is justified to do so), but Glitterdust drives me insane. For a single 2nd level spell you can blind a group and reveal invisible creatures, and the save makes no sense. In the next campaign I run it's going to be a Reflex save.

That makes the spell even stronger. Barring sub groups that allow immunity, fort is the worse save, followed by will and reflex is the best.

[Eldariel]

It's listed as a favorite of dragons under their monster description. The list of favorites isn't too long and dragons get a lot of feats. About 50 other major monsters like the tarrasque also have it (he also auto passes his listen checks too, btw). I think more PCs would take it too if they knew the blindness/invisibility/etc. rules; I do know at least a couple people that love it.

Actually, Tarrasque has mere +17 Listen. One of the more idiotic parts in his design, I might add. That means that not only does he not autopass the pinpoint Listen-checks (remember range-penalties and the option of moving after attacking/doing anything), anyone with any Hide/Move Silently and a good HiPS is completely, utterly undetectable for it. Dragons are much better off, of course.

[Eurus]

I'd say reflex doesn't make much more sense. You succeed and move out of the area? So free move?

You pass and close your eyes in time? Awesome, you still can't see. Open them again and you still have particles everywhere.

How does reflex make any sense either?

How does reflex versus anything work, though? A blast strong enough to shatter steel goes off, and you somehow figure out how to position yourself to not get mulched? Gets even worse with evasion.

[Koury]

Well, some things make more sense then others, like lightning bolt. I can accept lightning-fast reflexes (haha) helping there. Fireball makes sense in some contexts (like finding a dip in the ground or a rock big enough to take cover behind. Or even having a shield and using it to block the worst of the blast. Evasion would be something like, I don't know, hiding behind your big dumb fighter scared-of-the-dark Incarnate buddy.)

[Mikeavelli]

High Wisdom lets you perceive things better.

Thus the bonus to spot checks.

Wisdom ALSO helps with will saves!

Thus, any save that involves getting blinded is going to be a will save.

I hope this made sense.

[Eldariel]

High Wisdom lets you perceive things better.

Thus the bonus to spot checks.

Wisdom ALSO helps with will saves!

Thus, any save that involves getting blinded is going to be a will save.

I hope this made sense.

To convolute matters a bit, Blindness is a Fortitude-save.

[Koury]

Spells and their saves are frusterating me.

...

IRON HEART SURGE!

[Boci]

How does reflex versus anything work, though? A blast strong enough to shatter steel goes off, and you somehow figure out how to position yourself to not get mulched?

Without evasion it can be explained by throwing your hands up to protect your face, or turning sidewase to reduce your profile. Remember, most commoners will still die from half damage.

[Runestar]

It is still the best golem killer (okay, maybe tieing with grease). A 1st/2nd lv spell shutting down a cr7+ foe? Yes please.