How to challenge but not invalidate low Will character

[Frosty]

So I'm DMing a campaign where my 4 PCs are infiltrating the Nine Hells. We've had one combat already, and one of the PCs spend the entire combat doing nothing but running away because he has a Will save of +3 (gogo Fear Auras). Given the nature of this campaign, how do I keep the character useful in combat but not completely negate the fact that he has only a +3 Will save at level 14? Devils aren't just going ignore their fear auras or their Dominates or Suggestions, but I don't want to make the character useless either. Any advice?

[jguy]

Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?

[PersonMan]

Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?

Seconded.

Also, how did he get a his modifier so low? The only thing I can imagine is if he was a bad Will save class and got himself a 4 or so in Wisdom.

Long-term: Iron Will should help if the save is that low.
Short-term: Owl's Wisdom nets you a +2, IIRC.

[Koury]

Level 14 with +3 Will? Is that a function of an abysmal (get it? Nine hells?) Wisdom or lots of classes? If its the latter, fractional saves. Use them

[Frosty]

PfE doesn't help against Fear effects or Suggestion does it? It will work against Dominate Person but Dominate's duration is...much longer than that of PfE.

Seconded.

Also, how did he get a his modifier so low? The only thing I can imagine is if he was a bad Will save class and got himself a 4 or so in Wisdom.

Long-term: Iron Will should help if the save is that low.
Short-term: Owl's Wisdom nets you a +2, IIRC.

I believe he has average or slightly below average wisdom but the Weak Will Flaw, and his classes are all Bad Will progression.

[Heliomance]

Multiclassing between low will classes would do it

[PersonMan]

PfE doesn't help against Fear effects or Suggestion does it? It will work against Dominate Person but Dominate's duration is...much longer than that of PfE.


I believe he has average or slightly below average wisdom but the Weak Will Flaw, and his classes are all Bad Will progression.

I see. Well, you could make the PCs paranoid that way, having Devils cast SLAs on him, and then see what they do once PfE wears off...

Anyways, if there are buffers in the party, they could help. Anyways, you could let him do some things. If, say, a Devil Suggests that he stop his party from fighting, you could simply hand him a note telling him he needs to do so.

[Alex112524]

Have him take Steadfast Determination? It's in PH2

[Shades of Gray]

Use the fractional saves variant?

[Ashiel]

If he's in the nine hells, he should likely have at least a cloak of resistance +2. A few wisdom buffs wouldn't hurt (owl's wisdom was wisely suggested). Iron Will is nice but maybe he can't use it.

Seriously though, the 1st level spell Remove Fear should be cast on the party pretty regularly at those levels; especially if fighting stuff with fear auras. I mean, honestly.

Protection from Evil as noted previously prevents charms and compulsions from affecting him until the hour/level duration wears off; which is usually long enough that the charms have worn off first.

If there's a paladin in the party, he should be getting another +4 to saving throws against fear. Highly situational though.

Bless is another 1st level staple spell that should be cast regularly. It provides bonuses against fear, and a +1 to all attack rolls for your whole party.

Calm emotions works pretty decently too, but requires concentration and can kill your own buffs.

Some ideas.

[Frosty]

His con isn't that hot either, so Steadfast Determination won'thelp. His saves are +6, +18, +3. I fear for his life. Makes me wonder how he made it as a Hellbreaker in the past.

[herrhauptmann]

I think it's called the standard of valor.
Pretty much a flag that you plant in the ground. Allies within range gain bonuses depending on which particular flag was planted.
edit:

His con isn't that hot either, so Steadfast Determination won'thelp. His saves are +6, +18, +3. I fear for his life. Makes me wonder how he made it as a Hellbreaker in the past.

Hellbreaker, that's the Fiendish codex PrC for rogues, isn't it? What's the fluff for the PrC?
Seriously though, maybe you should 'cheat' a little and plant a magic item within the loot, and give the party a free casting of identify so they can find out what it is real quick.

If he STILL doesn't take the item, well, you've tried helping him. At this point, it's his fault for not being smarter in character generation.

Ex: Had a level 15 fighter. Base saves (before items) F-23/R-3/W-16. Managed to get up to a 10 reflex, but that cost a bit of money in enchantments that stacked. (And was wasted money, levels 15-17, didn't need a single reflex save)

[Lysander]

Take leadership, gain a paladin cohort and +4 vs fear.

Or become undead.

[Frosty]

Yeah that's the PrC. They're chaotic types that raid devil treasure hordes...for fun or to disrupt them it's all good.

[Bibliomancer]

If he survives to 15th level, the wizard could cast mind-blank on him.

Actually, you could make the focus of a min-adventure to get a greater metamagic rod of chaining (value 100,000gp+, from Complete Arcane). 3 times per day, you can chain (increase single person spell to 1 primary +1/caster level secondary targets, great for buffs) any level of spell. Thus, the entire party is continually mindblanked, and you have a logical reason for why a group of devils (with greater teleport at will) do not use scry and die tactics.

[ericgrau]

Remove fear is a first level cleric / bard spell. It can even hit multiple targets. At higher levels a wizard or sorcerer can give him a mind blank. There's also dispels and a million other counters to suggest to the party. Probably a magic item I haven't thought of too.

[Haven]

Personally, I think fractional will should be used for just this reason. It stops people from getting shafted for multiclassing, and conversely, prevents them from getting a ridiculous save by getting all those +2s through multi-classing.

Basically, treat the good progression as giving +1/2 to a save and the poor progression as giving +1/3 to a save (rounding down). They get an extra +2 to their good saves in the class they take at level 1 (treating that as a benefit like x4 skill points and max HP, in other words).

That ought to even out those saves to something a bit more balanced instead of the overloaded fortitude save.

[Thrawn183]

Don't, if he's getting a great reflex save from multiclassing, he has to pay with a weak will save. If you want to boost his will save, make sure to do it in a way that knocks down his reflex save (as fractional saves probably would I guess)

[Runestar]

Heroes' feast would grant fear immunity, and it should last long enough to see you through the day.

[Frosty]

Hmm...Hero's Feast is a FANTASTIC idea. And he has only multiclassed once. Went from Rogue to Hellbreaker.

[herrhauptmann]

What're his stats? And specific build breakdown.

Anyway, if he's got the flaw weak willed, then I'd say that both his fort AND will saves are too low. Without that flaw, his saves would be the same in both. And a 6 in either, he's got what, a 4 base, and a +2 cloak?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Seriously, why did he not do SOMETHING to mitigate his poor Will save?

Have him dip two levels in Swordsage. Pick up the Diamond Mind maneuvers which replace Fort and Will save with a Concentration check, which can be boosted much easier. This should help him survive. Also, with things like Island of Blades, Assassin's Stance, and Pouncing Strike, it should significantly boost his damage output.

[Nuke]

He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

[Lin Bayaseda]

So I'm DMing a campaign where my 4 PCs are infiltrating the Nine Hells. We've had one combat already, and one of the PCs spend the entire combat doing nothing but running away because he has a Will save of +3 (gogo Fear Auras). Given the nature of this campaign, how do I keep the character useful in combat but not completely negate the fact that he has only a +3 Will save at level 14? Devils aren't just going ignore their fear auras or their Dominates or Suggestions, but I don't want to make the character useless either. Any advice?

He should consider using ranged weapons. I hear a crossbow can hit from way beyond the fear aura.

[herrhauptmann]

He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

Taking a flaw, then turning around and taking a feat to negate the flaw is rather counterproductive, unless there's a feat which is 1st level only that you NEED. I can't really see a case where it's productive to get a 1st level feat by taking a flaw, then using up your 6th or 9th level feat recovering from the flaw. More likely to be taking a feat at that level which has prereqs.

He should really have taken noncombatant, the poor reflex one, or murky eyed. Unless there's a specific, story based reason for why he chose the flaw he did.

[Runestar]

Hmm...Hero's Feast is a FANTASTIC idea. And he has only multiclassed once. Went from Rogue to Hellbreaker.

And it basically invalidates the point of fear auras on the party.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

And actually, I can see the GM going "Hey, you knew where you were going, you were the one who hosed your Will save, with no attempt to shore it up, and every attempt to dump it. It's your own darn fault you're running away every game. Maybe next time, don't min/max away a critical defense...

[Deepblue706]

Remove Fear, Calm Emotions, Heroes' Feast, Heroism, Greater Heroism are all useful. Some of these can even come in potion form. The PC could spend resources having to accomodate his weakness, making it less of a problem and allowing for play, but not necessarily easy play as the PC has less to spend on other materials.

And even then, the character isn't invulnerable to fear effects.

[Pluto]

Isn't Superior Resistance a level 6 spell?

And I wouldn't worry about it, so long as he will be able to make steps to rebuild a couple levels or to multiclass into somethig a bit more robust.

[ericgrau]

Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?

No effect on fear, only enchantments that grant ongoing control.

Heroes' feast would grant fear immunity, and it should last long enough to see you through the day.

Heroes' feast only gives a +1 bonus to saves vs. fear. Remove fear is still a first level spell btw . Does the cleric seriously have a better use for his 1st level slots? It also provides a +4 to saves vs. fear if you cast it ahead of time instead of using it to remove fear. Greater heroism provides fear immunity. Dispel works against spell like abilities like devil fear. If you have a druid he can spontaneously summon a unicorn who can cast remove fear.