[3.5] Ranged Sneak Attack

[bbugg]

Questions about ranged sneak attacks...

As I understand it, you can apply sneak attack damage if:
a - the target is denied its dex bonus to AC, or
b - you flank the target

If you're using a ranged weapon, you don't threaten anyone, so you can't flank them. That means, you can only get the bonus if they're denied their dex to AC. Seems like it wouldn't happen all that often... Does that sort of gimp a a ranged rogue?

Another question - if my two friends are flanking a baddie 20ft from me, is he considered flanked for my attack also, or just their attacks? Or, in melee terms, if my friends are on the right and left sides of a bad guy, then they flank him. If I'm directly in front of the same bad guy, am I flanking him too? There's nobody on the opposite side, so I'd think technically I'm not. However, he's certainly distracted enough that I'd rule him flanked!

Any other thoughts about ranged sneak attack damage and/or flanking??
Thanks a lot!

[magic9mushroom]

Questions about ranged sneak attacks...

As I understand it, you can apply sneak attack damage if:
a - the target is denied its dex bonus to AC, or
b - you flank the target

If you're using a ranged weapon, you don't threaten anyone, so you can't flank them. That means, you can only get the bonus if they're denied their dex to AC. Seems like it wouldn't happen all that often... Does that sort of gimp a a ranged rogue?

Another question - if my two friends are flanking a baddie 20ft from me, is he considered flanked for my attack also, or just their attacks? Or, in melee terms, if my friends are on the right and left sides of a bad guy, then they flank him. If I'm directly in front of the same bad guy, am I flanking him too? There's nobody on the opposite side, so I'd think technically I'm not. However, he's certainly distracted enough that I'd rule him flanked!

Any other thoughts about ranged sneak attack damage and/or flanking??
Thanks a lot!

Yes, you have to make them lose Dex to AC. No, this isn't all that hard, given that the range allows you to attack from outside the range at which they can see you.

[Beelzebub1111]

Yes, you have to make them lose Dex to AC. No, this isn't all that hard, given that the range allows you to attack from outside the range at which they can see you.

Well you do have to be within 30 ft. but you also should focus on improving your initiative as much as you can.

[Quirp]

For your flanking question: no, he is not flanked for you. The flanking rules and some neat examples are in the PHB.
If your opponents do not have 5 ranks in balance a well placed Grease or marbles can do the trick (UMD+wand of Grease=a good idea for every rogue)

[tyckspoon]

You can also deny Dex by attacking from total concealment, such as acquired with a very good Hide check (and usually some form of Hide In Plain Sight), attacking from invisibility, or Blinking. You can also blind your opponents for the same effect.

It's near-impossible to flank somebody from outside your melee threat range. I think there's an ACF or two that does it for a couple of classes, but other than that there is no way for a ranged attacker to benefit from a flanking bonus.

[Douglas]

Yes, ranged weaponry is usually a bad choice for rogues for this exact reason.

No, having your buddies flank for you doesn't count. You have to be one of the flankers.

[Eldariel]

How to SA at range:
- Use Invisibility, Blinking (Ring of Blinking), Hide+Move Silently+Darkstalker [LoM]+HiPS or similar to maintain ability to Sneak Attack at range constantly.
- Remember that characters that have not yet acted in the combat are Flat-Footed. Sneak Attackable.
- Characters Balancing without at least 5 ranks in Balance are treated as Flat-Footed. Nothing in Monster Manual has those ranks IIRC. Grease-spell is a Rogue's best friend, and a fairly good Wand to pick up once you can afford 1st level Wanded spells and have Use Magic Device to activate them. Marbles [Arms & Equipment Guide] as a 1 silver piece equipment that enables making people Balance.
- There are ways to threaten with a bow, such as Peerless Archer's [Silver Marches] Threaten-ability, Arrow Mind-spell [Spell Compendium] or the Ranged Threat-feat [DR350]. Do note though that as these require being really close, they tend to remove the primary advantage a bow has and thus are subpar.


And no, people aren't considered Flanked for ranged attacks, only for the melee attackers actually doing the flanking. A melee attacker not in flanking position compared to the other two wouldn't gain flanking-benefits either.

Some abilities (notably one of Tome of Battle School Feats) enable your allies to consider people flanked without limitations though. But those are always specifically spelled out, and rare.


Oh, and note: Crossbow Sniper-feat [PHBII] increases your Sneak Attack-range to 60' with Crossbows. Sniper's Shot-spell [Spell Compendium] removes range caps on Sneak Attack.

Finally, you may want to peruse Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks if you find them confusing. Do note that if opponent has e.g. Concealment from you, you cannot Sneak Attack them.

[Curmudgeon]

Ranged sneak attack is extremely important at the beginning of almost every battle.

• A high Spot check means you probably won't be surprised. You get to apply sneak attack on the surprise round.
• A high initiative means you'll get a full round of attacks before most foes have acted yet. You get to apply sneak attack against all such flat-footed targets.

After that, Use Magic Device and a wand of Greater Invisibility are your friends.

[bbugg]

Thanks for the quick answers!

This is actually for an Iron Heroes game, so it's very low magic. Most of the 3.5 rules still apply though. There's an archer (class) in the party who's taking feats to qualify for sneak attack damage (same wording as in the PHB). It just seems it will be infrequently used to me... He may get a few shots off in the first round, but after that it'd be difficult.

Do you think it would be unbalanced if I ruled that you get SA damage if you are attacking an opponent who is engaged in melee with an ally and you're on the opposite side? I would not give the flanking bonus to either player. My logic is that the SA damage represents the fact that you can aim more carefully when your opponent is engaged and not paying full attention to you. This would apply in this case... Otherwise, there really isn't a good way to increase ranged damage output...

A little more info, hidden from my party. KEVIN -DON'T READ THIS!

Spoiler

Show

The party is about to come up against a whole bunch of low level SA capable baddies - this might make them more of a threat too. I apply rules evenly to both sides...

[Frosty]

Haley is indeed unoptimized.

[Eldariel]

You could offer the Wilderness Rogue variant that gets Camouflage on level 10 and Hide in Plain Sight on level 13; that will enable him to Hide practically anywhere.

Combined with Darkstalker, that's a completely non-magical way to pretty much always get your SAs as long as an opponent doesn't actually beat your Hide-check. Of course, being level 13, it's a long time before that solves anything. And that's the fastest way to gain non-magical HiPS as far as I know.


@The suggested houserule: No, it wouldn't really be a problem. It may be just fine, actually. Older editions with facing (one of the dumbest exclusions in 3.5, btw) Sneak Attack was Backstab and thus worked pretty much exactly like that, and it never broke anything (though it did deal insane damage for the game).

[LichPrinceAlim]

My fave Sneak Attack from a mile away is:

Dark Wild Elf (+1LA)
Wilderness Rogue/Warlock/Spellwarp Sniper

[Eldariel]

My fave Sneak Attack from a mile away is:

Dark Wild Elf (+1LA)
Wilderness Rogue/Warlock/Spellwarp Sniper

I vastly prefer Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/X 5. Persists all the Sniper's Shot/Guided Shot/Golemstrike-line things, casts Hunter's Eye, has unlimited range with about 20d6 crits on every hit, and can crit most things (without Greater Fortifications; that needs to be Dispelled first). Hell, Arcane Disciple and Metamagic School Focus Persist Divine Power and you'll be a damn good archer too. And with all the persisting, the final 5 levels may just as well involve Incantatrix 3 to Persist stuff.

[Runestar]

Have the wizard blind them with glitterdust.

[ericgrau]

Triggers:
Get a surprise round
Go before any monster in round 1 (even after a surprise round)
Grease
Glitterdust
[Greater] invisibility (from the spell or be a pixie)
Ring of blinking
Start range for the free round 1 sneak attacks, then switch to melee
Get an ally to grapple the monster (requires improved precise shot)
Get an ally to stunning fist
Get an ally to paralyze the monster (you kill him to keep him from getting a save next round)
Hide in plain sight <shudder>

Um... I'm sure there's more. Point is denying dex is extremely common. You just need to go find a method and use it.

[Curmudgeon]

Go before any monster in round 1 (even after a surprise round)

That's optimal, of course, but hardly necessary. The advantage of having a ranged weapon is that you don't have to beat all opponents' initiatives; you can simply choose opponents who haven't acted yet. That's the big advantage of a ranged weapon over melee combat: you're not committed to fighting just the opponents in reach. And if your first shot doesn't seem to do much damage (maybe they've got Uncanny Dodge), you can pick other targets for subsequent shots. Ranged beats melee twice over here: you don't have to forfeit a full attack chance by closing, and you can adjust targets if your first choice was poor.

[Frosty]

You don't get a full-attack on the surprise round. Standard or move action only. Manyshot will work though.

[Runestar]

You don't get a full-attack on the surprise round. Standard or move action only. Manyshot will work though.

Or even better, use greater manyshot. You can apply sneak attack to all arrows fired, even if they target the same foe.

[Splendor]

Deadeye Shot (PHB 2 pg 78) is also a good feat to take for ranged sneak attack. "If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack."

[Eloel]

You don't get a full-attack on the surprise round. Standard or move action only. Manyshot will work though.

Not if you don't know how to get it.
Pounce & partial charge gives you your full-attack, so does a +move action from Belt of Battle.

[PhoenixRivers]

Not if you don't know how to get it.
Pounce & partial charge gives you your full-attack, so does a +move action from Belt of Battle.

+move won't do it.

Nothing in belt of battle's text suggests that the action it grants can be combined or seperated.

1 charge is a move action. Take one.
2 charges is a standard action. Take one.
3 charges is a full round action. Take one.

Nothing in the text indicates that you can burn 3 charges to take a move and a standard. You get a full round action. Not 2 lesser actions.

[Eloel]

+move won't do it.

Nothing in belt of battle's text suggests that the action it grants can be combined or seperated.

1 charge is a move action. Take one.
2 charges is a standard action. Take one.
3 charges is a full round action. Take one.

Nothing in the text indicates that you can burn 3 charges to take a move and a standard. You get a full round action. Not 2 lesser actions.

A fullround action is a standard + a move action.
If you have a standard, and add a move, you get a fullround action.
I fail to see the problem here.

[ericgrau]

You don't get a full-attack on the surprise round. Standard or move action only. Manyshot will work though.

Ya but an extra shot is an extra shot. Which you can follow up with a full round sneak attacks in round 1. You only get sneak attack on 1 shot out of a volley, so manyshot still only gives 1 sneak attack if it hits at all. Greater manyshot OTOH fixes this.

[Hawk7915]

It relies on another member of the party to do a huge favor to the rogue, but one thing that might work is to have a party ranger give up his animal companion in favor of "distracting attack" from PH2, which makes any enemy the ranger hits be considered flanked until it is hit again (or the ranger's turn comes back around). Have the rogue delay to after the ranger and just shoot whatever the ranger hit...we used this tactic to great effect in our hideously unoptimized, low-magic Steampunk campaign .

[Yucca]

The "sneaky shot" ranged attack trick from the Master Thrower PrC lets you deny a target's Dex-bonus if you win a slight of hand vs spot opposed skill check. It takes your move action, so you can't full-attack, but you can still use manyshot.

[Fizban]

Just wanted to point out: a standard Wand of Grease is actually pretty dang useless for a rogue. Duration 1 round means that they aren't balancing anymore by the time you can attack them. You'd need at least 3 or 4 rounds to make the action worthwhile, and that means 3 or 4 times the price.

[ericgrau]

Ya better to either have either allies cast the spells or find another source. Like be a pixie, beat anything's initiative, etc. Other than wands of acid splash for easier surprise round hits, UMD doesn't get you very far here.

[Pluto]

Ya better to either have either allies cast the spells or find another source. Like be a pixie, beat anything's initiative, etc. Other than wands of acid splash for easier surprise round hits, UMD doesn't get you very far here.

Nerveskitter! Summon Nature's Ally! Blink! Greater Invisibility! Black Tentacles!

[Curmudgeon]

Just wanted to point out: a standard Wand of Grease is actually pretty dang useless for a rogue. Duration 1 round means that they aren't balancing anymore by the time you can attack them. You'd need at least 3 or 4 rounds to make the action worthwhile, and that means 3 or 4 times the price.

More. really. What you'd really like is a wand of Grease with Widen Spell preapplied (which makes it a 4th level spell), and appropriate caster level (7) for full combat duration. Hitting 4 times the number of squares lets you trigger the wand once to cover a bunch of enemies, and then get on with the combat.

[ericgrau]

^ EDIT: Also too expensive. A wand of a level 4 spell is 21,000 gp. By the time you get it (without seriously gimping your character from the expense), half the enemies are flying or have balance or some such.

Nerveskitter! Summon Nature's Ally! Blink! Greater Invisibility! Black Tentacles!

Immediate action so you still have time for something else. Dies too easily and 1 round casting time when surprise round is only a standard action. Too expensive. Too expensive. Too expensive.

Get a ring of blink at high levels, have allies cast the last 2 and grease. Nerveskitter is okay but as pointed out you're bound to beat something's initiative even without a boost.