Nerfing Tier 1 classes

[Soranar]

I fully understand that some spells/feats (craft contingency I'm looking at you) are simply gamebreakers regardless of class. But if you wanted to nerf Tier 1 into Tier 2, what would you do?

This is what I have so far (I realize I'm missing 3 classes, Artificer, Archivist and Erudite, but I've never had to deal with them as a DM or a player so I lack experience with them to have an informed opinion)

Wizard: Lose scribe scroll and free feats. You're basically a Sorcerer without bonus feats and with a better casting stat and spell access.

I realize many prestige classes could fix this but that's another thread.

Cleric: d6 hitpoints, Wizard's BAB (obvioulsy cloistered cleric is just banned, some spells still turn you into a fighter but not all the time and it still takes a spell slot), Low Fort Saves.

Druid: d6 hitpoints, Wizard's BAB, natural spell is banned

opinions?

EDIT:

Spells that are problematic are banned (my list is short, it'll get longer with input)

-Timestop
-Shapechange
-Polymorph
-Any rope trick variation
-Mind Blank
-Heroes' Feast

Spells that need nerfing but are required to survive (IMO)
-death ward

EDIT:

Scrolls and wands are not a problem in my campaigns as they are rare and 2 or 3 times the cost with limited WBL.

EDIT:

New Spell Progression for Full Casters

1st 0 0 - - - - - - - -
2nd 1 0 - - - - - - - -
3rd 1 0 - - - - - - - -
4th 2 1 0 - - - - - - -
5th 2 1 0 - - - - - - -
6th 3 2 1 0 - - - - - -
7th 3 2 1 0 - - - - - -
8th 4 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
9th 4 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
10th 4 4 3 2 1 0 - - - -
11th 4 4 3 2 1 0 - - - -
12th 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 - - -
13th 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 - - -
14th 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 - -
15th 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 - -
16th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 -
17th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0 -
18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0
19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0
20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1

[Kylarra]

You're doing effectively nothing to the wizard, nothing to the cleric and slightly weakening the druid since now they're just a fullcaster and a meatshield instead of two meatshields and a fullcaster.

[Eloel]

Spells above 5th level don't exist.

2nd level spells are now called 3rd level spells.
3nd level spells are now called 5rd level spells.
4nd level spells are now called 7rd level spells.
5nd level spells are now called 9rd level spells.

Everything else stays the same - even-numbered slots are now only good for metamagic.

Heighten Spell is no longer a feat, but an option while casting a spell.

Pretty easy to grasp, balances tier1 to around tier3, kills all casters below tier2.

Sloppy, but works.

[Soranar]

You're doing effectively nothing to the wizard, nothing to the cleric and slightly weakening the druid since now they're just a fullcaster and a meatshield instead of two meatshields and a fullcaster.

So you think I should concentrate on nerfing spells directly instead?

[Dienekes]

A little secret about the tier 1 classes. It's not the classes, it's the spells (except Druid).

So far you've done nothing to alleviate the problem

[Soranar]

Spells above 5th level don't exist.

2nd level spells are now called 3rd level spells.
3nd level spells are now called 5rd level spells.
4nd level spells are now called 7rd level spells.
5nd level spells are now called 9rd level spells.

Everything else stays the same - even-numbered slots are now only good for metamagic.

Heighten Spell is no longer a feat, but an option while casting a spell.

Pretty easy to grasp, balances tier1 to around tier3, kills all casters below tier2.

Sloppy, but works.

I want to drop them a tier, not 2.

[Kylarra]

So you think I should concentrate on nerfing spells directly instead?

I think you're best off just removing tier 1-2 classes from the game and playing with the very limited fullcasters and halfcasters and pseudocasters that remain, rather than trying to arbitrarily throw a nerfbat around.

[Apropos]

I want to drop them a tier, not 2.

Why not 2? Most people agree that tier 3 is where wizards intended the power level to be at.

[Soranar]

I think you're best off just removing tier 1-2 classes from the game and playing with the very limited fullcasters and halfcasters and pseudocasters that remain, rather than trying to arbitrarily throw a nerfbat around.

Mostly for roleplay considerations: my players would still want to play a nerfed mage or druid, even if they didn't completely break the game.

[Artanis]

Mostly for roleplay considerations: my players would still want to play a nerfed mage or druid, even if they didn't completely break the game.

Uh...the definition of Tier 2 is that they DO still break the game, just not as easily as Tier 1.

[Draz74]

Your Wizard is still Tier 1. And I'm not sure how to fix that. Really, it's just having an unlimited spell list that separates Tier 1 from Tier 2 (mostly), and the unlimited book-based spell list is kind of an important fluff point for the Wizzie.

However, the good news is that Cleric and Druid are pretty easy to nerf to Tier 2 by just using the Spontaneous Divine Casting Variant. I like it anyway, because it makes Clerics of different gods feel more distinct.

Note that, with just that variant, Cleric and Druid will both still be very very strong Tier 2's. So I also recommend the following changes:

Druid

• PHB2 Shapeshift variant

Cleric

• Free martial weapon proficiency with deity's favored weapon
• 4+Int skill points/level
• d6 Hit Die
• poor Fort save
• no heavy armor proficiency
• remove Divine Power from spell list
• don't allow Nightsticks to be used to power Divine Feats

War Domain (changes to complement the changes to the Cleric):

• Grants heavy armor proficiency
• still includes Divine Power

Also consider:

• Making spellcasting slightly MAD for both classes?
• Giving the Druid an animal companion of some sort still (but not so strong at low levels); perhaps Wild Cohort as a bonus feat or something.

[Godskook]

Wizard: Lose scribe scroll and free feats. You're basically a Sorcerer without bonus feats and with a better casting stat and spell access.

So wizards stop taking improved initiative. That's the extent of the damage.

Cleric: d6 hitpoints, Wizard's BAB (obvioulsy cloistered cleric is just banned, some spells still turn you into a fighter but not all the time and it still takes a spell slot), Low Fort Saves.

Still the same tier.

Druid: d6 hitpoints, Wizard's BAB, natural spell is banned

On the one hand, banning natural spell is a good way to nerf the Druid, but on the other, you've otherwise missed what makes him powerful to begin with.

opinions?

Full-casters don't need rogue-BAB to be powerful, and they don't need d8 HD. You're focusing on all the wrong things to nerf them, which means they're just as powerful as ever.

[Soranar]

Why not 2? Most people agree that tier 3 is where wizards intended the power level to be at.

Tier 2 is manageable, and sometimes/often I need my players to be that powerful (I'm a rather evil DM).

[Kylarra]

Tier 2 is manageable, and sometimes/often I need my players to be that powerful (I'm a rather evil DM).

Tier 2 is just tier 1 with a limited array of tricks instead of unlimited though. It's still gamebreaking compared to "lesser" tiers. Anyway you've got easy fixes without trying if you want tier 1->2

Ban: Archivist, Artificer, Erudite, these don't seem to be considerations for you anyway.

Shapeshift variant druid, ban natural spell.

Cleric-> favored soul
Wizard -> Sorcerer

Done.

[oxybe]

A little secret about the tier 1 classes. It's not the classes, it's the spells (except Druid).

So far you've done nothing to alleviate the problem

this: a thousand times this. even if he does have the wizard's BAB, how often will the cleric need the Fighter's BAB? twice per day? three? and how many slots does he have to use?

mind blank still destroys an entire school of magic.

hero's feast + death ward stops a lot of situations that could pop up and accidentally kill you (oops, debilitating con poison or finger of death. roll up a new PC jim).

scrolls of "solve situational problem" and wands of "fix problem happens often enough" are still around to let the caster prep his list with more versatile/multiple use spells (polymorph for example can be used offensively, defensively, for scouting, ect...) that day instead of various situational ones he may/may not use (like knock, stone to flesh, ect...).

the druid has the legitimate issue of having a mini-fighter that he can buff up to full fighter+++ potential, in addition to full casting & shapeshifting. his abilities need to be dropped a bit or at his casting to bring him down a notch.

[lsfreak]

Tier 2 is manageable, and sometimes/often I need my players to be that powerful (I'm a rather evil DM).

In that case, make them like the T2 classes - they all have limited and much more permanent spell selection as the primary difference between them and T1. T1's strength is knowing lots of spells and being able to switch them out on the fly, unlike T2 that have a limited number of spells that are essentially fixed.

[Artanis]

Tier 2 is manageable, and sometimes/often I need my players to be that powerful (I'm a rather evil DM).

Just because a class is Tier 3 does not mean it's weak. Tier 1 and Tier 2 are NOT separated from the other tiers by power, they're separated by the fact that they have the potential to absolutely obliterate a game. All Tier 3 means is that the class doesn't get the campaign-obliterating stuff.

[Kurald Galain]

I want to drop them a tier, not 2.

Okay, so tweak what he said a bit more.

Gain second level spells at level 3, third level spells at 6, fourth level spells at 9, fifth level spells at 12, sixth level spells at 15, 7th level spells at 18.

[Ernir]

Wizards and Clerics suck. The Wizard and Cleric spell lists, however, are beyond powerful.
So yes, I agree with the chorus, forget about nerfing the classes, nerf the spells (except in the case of the Druid, that one actually has a strong casting chassis in addition to a strong spell list). And to prevent you from going mad due to the workload (you would have to go over literally thousands of spells), focus on the ones that have been problematic in your games. No reason to make up the 20000th Polymorph fix if all your players have been doing with it is to occasionally turn the Wizard into a bear to help break down a door.


EDIT: One way to get what I think should disqualify Clerics and Druid from tier 1 (down to strong tier 2): Spontaneous Divine Casters. Or just the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman.

[sofawall]

Wizards and Clerics suck. The Wizard and Cleric spell lists, however, are beyond powerful.
So yes, I agree with the chorus, forget about nerfing the classes, nerf the spells (except in the case of the Druid, that one actually has a strong casting chassis in addition to a strong spell list). And to prevent you from going mad due to the workload (you would have to go over literally thousands of spells), focus on the ones that have been problematic in your games. No reason to make up the 20000th Polymorph fix if all your players have been doing with it is to occasionally turn the Wizard into a bear to help break down a door.


EDIT: One way to get what I think should disqualify Clerics and Druid from tier 1 (down to strong tier 2): Spontaneous Divine Casters. Or just the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman.

Actually, clerics have a decent chassis. Fort/Will as strong saves, d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, Armour and Turning.

[PinkysBrain]

Clerics in core don't get that many great spells at low level ... also no one ever wants to play one.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I completely replaced the core Tier 1 classes with classes that used the Warlock Invocation system, and it seems to have worked fairly well

The Arcanist (successor to Wiz/Sorc) and the Priest (successor to the Cleric) have 1/2 BAB, One invocation every level, and d4 HD. The Wilder (successor to the Druid) has 3/4 BAB and Warlock invocation progression. Instead of Wildshape, they have Aspect Invocations (pretty much all-day buffs). Can still become a beefy melee guy, but it'll require you to focus pretty heavily on Aspects.

Then I also did an Invocation version of the Bard, which seemed to work out quite well

[Pluto]

I fully understand that some spells/feats (craft contingency I'm looking at you) are simply gamebreakers regardless of class. But if you wanted to nerf Tier 1 into Tier 2, what would you do?

It looks like you've missed the feature that makes thee classes ridiculous to begin with.
If you've missed that, it is probably a non-issue in your games.
If it it a non-issue, why change?

Also, what Draz said. And limit the hell out of the Wizard's spell access.
(But I would skip the built-in companion entirely. Druids have Handle Animal and Wild Empathy.)

[Gnaeus]

Banning polymorph and requiring shapeshift druid are both bad fixes.

Druids and wizards SHOULD be able to turn themselves into almost anything. It is a thematic, signature ability found throughout fantasy...

What they SHOULDN'T be able to do is to turn themselves into something that is better than a fighter.

Pathfinder (and others) came up with the answer. Wildshape and polymorph should give stat bonuses based on the spell/form. They should not replace the physical stats. So a Druid or a Wizard with a 6 strength which turned into a tiger would not get the strength of a tiger, but they would get some kind of strength +, either level dependent or static based on creature type/size. Polymorph is still a versatile spell, it just isn't the one stop gish in a bottle spell.

You can then keep or ban natural spell depending on your preference.

[Aldizog]

What really makes the druid a Tier-1 class and not Tier-2?

It is outstanding at dealing HP damage (does one thing exceptionally well) and very good at battlefield control. But versatility is the hallmark of Tier 1 classes. At higher levels, the druid lacks the utility options of the wizard or the cleric (no Lim Wish, Wish, Miracle, planar travel, or certain crucial status-fixing spells, and very limited teleport). It indirectly gains some utility effects through summoning, but it still has more gaps than the wizard or cleric.

IMO, nerfing the versatility just a *bit* more would give it Tier-2 status. Obviously limit Shapechange forms known (do NOT just allow a Knowledge check to be familiar with an obscure creature that the DM hasn't actively included in the game world), and maybe revise the SNA list to remove some of the monsters with utility SLAs that the druid is lacking.

[LibraryOgre]

Simplest and most direct: Use Bard spellcasting tables. Give spontaneous casters (except the bard) double the spells per day (and, IMO, double the bonus spells) to make up for their lesser selections.

Once you do this, most of the problem spells are delayed to far later levels, and low-level casters have need of their steel-suited friends.

[Evard]

I would vote for the Unearthed Arcana variant for the druid. Get rid of the spells (or maybe give them very limited spells per day or spells known). The UA may need tweeked but I like the aspect of nature druid :p The warden from 4e actually reminds me of this variant :p

wizards.... make arcane magic hurt to use? With their low hit points they would have to really think about what they wanted to use :p With great power comes a huge headache like always XD

[ScionoftheVoid]

Simplest and most direct: Use Bard spellcasting tables. Give spontaneous casters (except the bard) double the spells per day (and, IMO, double the bonus spells) to make up for their lesser selections.

Once you do this, most of the problem spells are delayed to far later levels, and low-level casters have need of their steel-suited friends.

They still get the low-level encounter enders just a level later, the fix still requires a fair bit of work to make high levels playable and at higher levels their spell DCs are very low unless optimised. So spells like Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog and company become better than they were already. That doesn't fix anything, it just delays it and different spells become awesome. Try finding someone who doesn't take Enervation who hasn't banned Necromancy under these rules for example. And higher levels become far more deadly because you have less defences and less offensive options.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I think you're best off just removing tier 1-2 classes from the game and playing with the very limited fullcasters and halfcasters and pseudocasters that remain, rather than trying to arbitrarily throw a nerfbat around.

Kylarra wins the thread.

Because as mentioned, its the casting that does it. Simply ban all casting and manifesting classes. Look how many are left? Just the cheesy online vestige. Kill that and your done.

That was easy.

[cfalcon]

So if you want to ban stuff, you have one or more of a few motivations:

1- You like the idea of your game being fair, and all classes having a good role to play in a fight.
2- Your players don't want to feel like they are "failing" for not taking a super powerful class- OR- You don't want to essentially write off the weaker fellows, making them unworkable by allowing broken stuff.
3- You have some players that will "go for the gold" and others that don't want to feel like they need to- by removing the "gold", all your players end up closer together, and happier.
4- Your game is not superflexible and able to accomodate the ramifications of some of the more bizarre things.
5- You have some bone to pick with some playstyle.

I'm answering on the assumption that you have some number of 1-4, and 5 isn't on your list.

First, I'm going to agree with the idea that the spells are your problem. Spells are super powerful, especially at high levels. Remember that a high level caster is clearly designed to be something like a demigod, and to change that you'll be working against a lot of spells. The first thing you listed was Time Stop, a 9th level spell! I'd say that you *might* want to consider a level cap in your game.

If that's not something you like the sound of, then you should look at the spells that do stuff that's designed to be broken-ish, and address those. If your goal is something like 1 or 2, then you need to be proactive, but google will help you- type the spell name into google with some modifiers like "wizard", and see if there's a bunch of forums chatting about it. Polymorph is an easy spell to have problems with, for instance, but everything that breaks physics hardcore, like invisibility and flight, can be a problem in your game, depending on what your enemies are like.

When it comes to clerics, you should consider if you, like Wizards, wants to "bait" people into playing a healer by offering a powerful class, or if you want the class to be brought more in line. The spontaneous casting variant for all divine guys will certainly help, and it will also reduce the skill cap on these classes so that more players can play them (being able to play a good cleric or wizard is pretty much a tradeskill- not just anyone can pick one up, and you may like or dislike this flavor).

You can also approach the situation by simply having magic be a lot less powerful in terms of where it functions, and how it works. Maybe copper stops it. Maybe any number of rituals available to peasants can ward it away. If you go *this* route, make sure your players are aware of it, and actually put the legwork into getting all the restrictions drawn up ahead of time.

Anyway, good luck!