[Pathfinder] Paladin Optimization

[Gorbash]

My gaming group just finished playing Savage Tide AP and we decided to play Council of Thieves. There will be only 3 of us (we want to finish it by October) and, as you might have guessed, I'll be playing an Elf Paladin (20 point buy).

Since I'm not really that familiar with PF optimization, I turn to the Playground for advice.

I'll probably be the only one with healing power in the party, and I'm not sure what gives the best bang for its buck - Channel Energy (with Selective Channeling) or Lay on Hands (with Extra Lay on Hands)? I know that healing is considered subpar in 3.5 terms, but from my experience it can't just be ignored, since sometimes you have to outlast the opponents.

Damage-wise, I'm really not sure what else I can do aside from Smiting and Power Attacking with a two handed weapon, while choosing Divine Bond with a weapon. Any advice on that one?

My stats will be:

Str 14
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 15

Thanks in advance.

[tyckspoon]

You do not have enough healing power to attempt healing in-combat. Trust me on this. Lay On Hands/Channel Energy is handy as a post-fight patchup, and the Mercies for Lay On Hands can fix a lot of really annoying status effects at later levels.. but if you try to use them as the primary means of keeping another party member standing, you are going to fail. 1d6/2 levels with no bonuses simply doesn't cut it. Smite the biggest threat and beat it down before it can do too much damage to your party, you'll prevent far more HP damage than you could possibly heal that way.

If you can bear to do it I would sell down your Int and a point of your Wis to dig out that last point in Cha.

You're pretty much right on damage- Pathfinder isn't that much of a departure from normal 3.5 practice. The most effective melee approach is still to get the biggest weapon you can functionally use and hit things with it with as much Strength as you can afford. The only real difference for you, especially at low levels, is that it's more effective when you decide to deploy your Smite.

[BobVosh]

Why elf? It takes from a stat you need, adds to two you don't. All the other misc bonuses it gives you, won't be helpful. You aren't likely to fail a save vs sleep, don't need the spell pen, you aren't going to ID magic items. +2 perception is nice, but not really a reason to use a race.

Every other race in core literally makes a better paladin. Halfling and dwarf being iffy.

Smite + Power attack are great. Cleave is even useful in PF, although I would still avoid G Cleave. If you are likely to be the only one to be hit extra lay on hands is always pleasant. Swift action heals on a class that has no/few uses for swift actions is great. Pally is fine for 1-20, and there isn't a PF PrC for it anyway. Except maybe duelist, if you are playing one odd pally.

[Tinydwarfman]

I recommend mounted charger or archer pally, but the archer will need good dex, which you don't have. No way to change the stats?

Mounted lance charge +spirited charge while smiting = MASSIVE DAMAGE

I would actually recommend S&B before Two handed though, because you don't get 1.5* smite damage.

[Gorbash]

You do not have enough healing power to attempt healing in-combat.

Yeah, I looked at the numbers a bit and really there isn't much I can do. Only Heal spell, which I do not have, is the way to go in combat. At least I can heal myself.

If you can bear to do it I would sell down your Int and a point of your Wis to dig out that last point in Cha.

I need skills. Diplomacy, Ride and Sense Motive at least.

Why elf? It takes from a stat you need, adds to two you don't. All the other misc bonuses it gives you, won't be helpful. You aren't likely to fail a save vs sleep, don't need the spell pen, you aren't going to ID magic items. +2 perception is nice, but not really a reason to use a race.

I wanted to play an elf. But with limited point buy, you might be right, Half-Elf is a better idea. That would make my stats:

Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 10 (0 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 13 (3 points)
Wis 10 (0 points)
Cha 17 (7 points and racial +2 goes here)

Divine bond with a Mount or Weapon?

[Tinydwarfman]

Yeah, I looked at the numbers a bit and really there isn't much I can do. Only Heal spell, which I do not have, is the way to go in combat. At least I can heal myself.



I need skills. Diplomacy, Ride and Sense Motive at least.



I wanted to play an elf. But with limited point buy, you might be right, Half-Elf is a better idea. That would make my stats:

Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 10 (0 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 13 (3 points)
Wis 10 (0 points)
Cha 17 (7 points and racial +2 goes here)

Divine bond with a Mount or Weapon?

Don't invest in charisma, Str would be much better.

With a 20 pt buy you should go

16 (18 w/ str focus)
10
14
12
8
14

you should only go mount if you are a charger, and even then it's your choice.

pick up +2 items as soon as you can instead of investing in a single +4 item, you'll get more out of it.

[Gorbash]

Hm, I don't know, Charisma would be too low then, and a lot of my abilities are dependant on it. How about the same initial setup, but +2 on Charisma?

[Gnaeus]

I recommend dipping sorcerer and then going into Dragon Disciple. in PF it is really a pretty effective combo.

[Gorbash]

I'm playing a Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple in a Legacy of Fire campaign, so I don't want to, basically, repeat myself. And I want to improved my Paladin abilities as much as I can.

[Frosty]

I have homebrewed a Grey Guard that works with PF Paladins if you want to show your DM.

Updated Gray Guard:

Spoiler

Show

HD: d10

Class Skills (4+Int mod per level):  Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Forgery, 
Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (local) (nobility) (religion),
Perception, Ride, Sense Motive.

BAB:  1/1 progression
Saves: Good Fort, Bad Ref, Good Will

Lv      Special                                               Spellcasting
1st     Sacrament of trust, lay on hands, Smite Evil 1/day    --
2nd     No Mercy                                              +1 level Paladin
3rd     Aura of Conviction                                    +1 level Paladin
4th     Smite evil 2/day                                      +1 level Paladin
5th     No Mercy                                              +1 level Paladin
6th     Aura of Trust                                         +1 level Paladin
7th     Smite evil 3/day                                      +1 level Paladin
8th     No Mercy                                              +1 level Paladin
9th     Aura of Sacrifice                                     +1 level Paladin
10th    Sacrament of the true faith, Justice Blade            +1 level Paladin

Sacrament of trust: As default Gray Guard. See Complete Scoundrel.

Lay on Hands (Su): Levels of gray guard stack with other class levels that grant lay on hands to determine how many times the ability can be used per day, how much healing each use grants, the save DC for the No Mercy ability, and the damage dealt by the No Mercy ability. For example, an 8th level paladin/4th level gray guard has 6+CHA bonus uses of Lay of Hands per day and each usage heals 6d6 damage.

Smite Evil (Su): As Pathfinder Paladin Smite Evil. You gain an extra Smite attempt at levels 1, 4, and 7. Levels of other classes that grant the smite evil class feature stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage dealt.

No Mercy (Su): At 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, a gray guard can select one No Mercy. When a gray guard first gains No Mercy, he has the option of using his lay on hands to damage not only undead creatures (which is the default lay on hands), but also to damage any creature. This deals 1d6 points of damage for every two effective paladin levels. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Each No Mercy adds an effect to the gray guard's lay on hands ability. Whenever the gray guard uses lay on hands to deal damage to a target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the No Mercies possessed by the gray guard. The victim gets a separate Fortitude save for each status effect to avoid it, but not to mitigate the damage. The save DC is 10+1/2 effective Paladin level+Charisma Modifier. The effects last for one hour unless stated otherwise.

At 2nd level, the gray guard can select from the following initial No Mercies.

Fatigued: The target is Fatigued. Repeated applications do not stack (to Exhausted for example), but resets the duration.

Shaken: The target is Shaken. Repeated applications do not stack (to Panicked for example), but resets the duration.

Sickened: The target is Sickened.


At 5th level, a gray guard adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Exhausted: The target is Exhausted. The gray guard must have the fatigue No Mercy before selecting this one.

Frightened: The target is Frightened for 1 minute. The gray guard must have the Shaken No Mercy before selecting this one.

Nauseated: The target is Nauseated for 1 round. The gray guard must have the Sickened mercy before selecting this mercy.


At 8th level, a gray guard adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Confused: The target is Confused for 5 rounds.

Dazed: The target Dazed for 2 rounds.

Blinded: The target is Blinded for 1 minute.

Aura of Conviction (Su): At 3rd level, a gray guard is more empowered by his conviction to battle evil. Each failed attempt to hinder the gray guard only hastens the inevitable victory of the grey guard. Whenever an evil creature casts a spell at, uses a Spell-like-ability at, or uses a Supernatural ability against the gray guard and the gray guard succeeds on the saving throw (if the effect allows a save in the first place. This aura has no effect against abilities that do not allow saves), then the gray guard and each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against the evil creature. This bonus lasts for 3 rounds.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Trust (Su): At 6th level, a gray guard is has learned how to better adapt to the changing social situations that he undoubtedly finds himself in, given his unorthodox methods. Him and all allies within 10 ft (he gets to choose which people count as allies) gain a Sacred bonus to Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive equal to 1/2 of his class level (not character level), rounded down.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Sacrifice (Su): At 9th level, a gray guard has internalized the concept that sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice something smaller to achieve something bigger. Him and each ally within 10 ft has the option the option of, as a swift action, willingly take anywhere from 1 to 3 Constitution damage that can't be prevented or negated or mitigated. The next time the character casts a spell or uses some sort of special ability, the save DC (if applicable) is increased by the same amount as the Consitution damage taken. The bonus is lost if not used by the beginning of the character's next turn.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Sacrament of the True Faith: As default Gray Guard. See Complete Scoundrel.

Justice Blade (Su): As the pinnacle of gray guards, you have realized that suffering and injustice are not the exclusive province of evil. You can use your smite ability to punish creatures of any alignment.

[porpentine]

Charisma is more of a focus in Pathfinder, since both your spells and class abilities work off it, and since swift-action Lay on Hands turns you into a really classy tank. I'd go with a 16 there - 14+2 if you go with the Half-Elf.

Intelligence...if skill points matter, why not dedicate your Favoured Class bonus to skills each and every level? That's worth +2 Int to you, since you're using Int for little else. You've also got a free Skill Focus as a Half Elf, so you could be a good rider or excellent diplomat from 1st. I'd put a 10 here, and not more than a 12.

Constitution: if you do devote FC bonusses to skills, you'll need a 14 here. Swift Lay on Hands gives you a lot of virtual hit points, but you'll still need a decent max. At higher levels, when your Armour Class starts to flag behind that of a Fighter, it might be worth considering Toughness.

Strength: If you're going to go melee all the time, a 16 is worth it. On the other hand, you can do rather well with a Divine Bond ranged weapon - in that case, you might want to consider 14 Str and 14 Dex.

Wisdom: 8. Spells no longer work of it, you'll make up your Will save via Charisma, and you can make good use of 2 extra stat points elsewhere.

Dex: 12, or 14 if you want to switch melee/ranged.

So, with 20 point buy:

Str 14 or 16 (5 or 10 spend)
Dex 14 or 12 (5 or 2 spend)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 10 (0 spend)
Wis 8 (-2 spend)
Cha 14+2 race (5 spend)

Str/Dex 14/14 leaves you 2 in the bank for Int 12: Str/Dex 16/12 doesn't.

Divine Bond: weapon is more versatile, and doesn't narrow your feat options - particularly since you can apply it to whatever weapon you want (prison bar, castle ballista, foe's disarmed weapon...and of course sword or bow).

That's not to say it isn't worth having a mount. If you put your free Skill Focus in Ride, you can decide whether to take Mounted Combat later, and at higher levels flying mounts (plus a ring of Featherfall) are a good deal with Mounted Combat to protect them. If you go that route, 14 Dex is a shade more valuable - every point of Ride being, in effect, a point of pseudo-AC for your mount.

Healing: Lay on Hands is really best used for yourself - the swift action is just too good to pass up. However, in PF you can use wands from 1st level. That's a much better way of offering your party a bit of healing early on - load up on a few wands of CLWs, and later on perhaps Lesser Restoration, Delay Poison, Resist Energy etc.

Hope that helps some,

The Porpentine.

[Runeclaw]

I would actually recommend S&B before Two handed though, because you don't get 1.5* smite damage.

PF Smite combines well with two-weapon fighting, which S&B basically is.

Are you limmited to Pathfinder only?

[Gorbash]

Yup, Pathfinder only. No homebrew, no backwards compatibility with 3.5. Yeah, it sucks, I know.

Intelligence...if skill points matter, why not dedicate your Favoured Class bonus to skills each and every level?

Because I want both 14 Con AND FC bonus. The other players are Ranger and a Wizard, which means I'll bear the brunt of the attacks, so I'll need all the HP I can get.

You've also got a free Skill Focus as a Half Elf, so you could be a good rider or excellent diplomat from 1st. I'd put a 10 here, and not more than a 12.

I'll drop Ride, since it's an urban campaign as I understand and Mounted Combat takes up room. I'll take Diplomacy, Perception (acquired as a class skill via a campaign trait) and Sense Motive and can't decide where to put Skill Focus.

Traits I'll be taking are one that gives me a +1 trait bonus on Perception and makes it a class skill (campaign trait) and Indomitable Faith, which gives me +1 on will saves (to negate wisdom penalty).

So, based on everyone's advice, I'll go with this route:

STR 16 (with +2 racial)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 16

As for feats...

1. Power Attack
3. Toughness
5. Extra Lay on Hands
7. Cleave
9. Improved Initiative
11. Irrelevant since campaign is from 1 to 11th lvl.

Although, I'm open for suggestions.