two questions about full attacks

[Mystic Muse]

1. Using a full attack would you attack with all your natural weapons? so, say you're using a Dragon. Would you attack with your bite, both claws, your wings and your tail?
2. Does Multi-attack take away the penalties from full attacking?

I can't find an answer to either of these in the SRD. Yes I already looked under full-attack.

[PhoenixRivers]

1. Using a full attack would you attack with all your natural weapons? so, say you're using a Dragon. Would you attack with your bite, both claws, your wings and your tail?
2. Does Multi-attack take away the penalties from full attacking?

I can't find an answer to either of these in the SRD. Yes I already looked under full-attack.

1) Yes.
2) Not quite. It does reduce secondary natural attacks to -2, instead of -5.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay thanks.

Is there a way to get fewer penalties from Full attacking by chance?

[PhoenixRivers]

Okay thanks.

Is there a way to get fewer penalties from Full attacking by chance?

-2 is about as good as you can get. If you like, you can work on obtaining bonuses. A Bull's Strength will offset the -2 from secondary attacks, give a +2 to the primary, and provide +2 damage to all attacks.

But you don't get much better than multiattack/multiweapon fighting for attack reduction.

[KellKheraptis]

Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

[PhoenixRivers]

Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

Isn't that epic?

[Claudius Maximus]

Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

This is correct.

On the off chance you didn't see it, you don't make iteratives with natural attacks. A dragon with 20 BAB doesn't get 4 attacks with each natural weapon; it uses each instance of a natural weapon once. So 2 claw attacks, for example.

Isn't that epic?

Nope; it's non-epic.

[Mystic Muse]

So building a Dragon to Attack with all its natural weapons is pretty much pointless in other words?

[magic9mushroom]

And their BAB doesn't go down by -5 for each one like with iteratives.

[Mystic Muse]

And their BAB doesn't go down by -5 for each one like with iteratives.

So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)

[PhoenixRivers]

So building a Dragon to Attack with all its natural weapons is pretty much pointless in other words?

Hardly. Dragons at higher levels have BAB to spare, hitting upwards of +30 and 40.

A Power attack for 10, with improved multiattack, and you're still rocking a Melee attack bonus high enough to hit most members of most parties on a 2, and are doing very respectable damage.

Add in spell buffs, and I've had great wyrms with only 1 combat buff doing around 150-170 damage on an attack.

Gets worse with Wraithstrike, when you can power attack for 20. Add in fog and blindsense, or natural darkness and the same, and you can go against flat-footed touch AC, pretty much guaranteeing hits for good damage. Yes, you'll have a miss chance, but if a dragon likes darkness and fog, he'll likely have blindfighting.

So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)

If he has improved multiattack, yes. If he has multiattack, he gets one at +20, and 4 at +18 (add in str, and subtract size, of course).

Now, if a dragon has +20 to hit, he may get a tail attack, making it 6 attacks. This is based on dragon size.

[Grumman]

So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)

No. He gets one primary attack at +20 (the bite) and four secondary attacks at +15 (2 claws and 2 wings).

[FishAreWet]

If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm still kind of confused.....

So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?

I'm asking because I kind of want to play one with these rules here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108

[FishAreWet]

So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?

YES.

Natural attacks don't care about BAB except for... attack bonus.

[Mystic Muse]

YES.

Natural attacks don't care about BAB except for... attack bonus.

Okay. Just making sure.

[PhoenixRivers]

If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

However, most dragons won't have the Dex required for Improved unarmed strike without work.

[Mystic Muse]

However, most dragons won't have the Dex required for Improved unarmed strike without work.

I don't see a DEX requirement for IUS in the SRD.

[magic9mushroom]

I'm still kind of confused.....

So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?

I'm asking because I kind of want to play one with these rules here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108

Yup. You get all your iteratives as normal, then all your natural weapons at BAB -5. So if you had a sword in one claw, the other claw free, 2 wings, a bite, and tail slap, you get, assuming enough BAB:

Weapon at normal AB
Weapon at AB-5
Weapon at AB-10
Weapon at AB-15
Claw at AB-5
2 Wings at AB-5
Bite at AB-5
Tail at AB-5.

Multiattack reduces all those -5s on natural attacks to -2s, and Improved Multiattack removes them entirely. You can also take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike to get more natural attacks, though they get penalties. If you don't use weapons, then your primary natural weapon doesn't take the -5 IIRC and you can apply your full Str modifier to it.

[Fiery Diamond]

Yup. You get all your iteratives as normal, then all your natural weapons at BAB -5. So if you had a sword in one claw, the other claw free, 2 wings, a bite, and tail slap, you get, assuming enough BAB:

Weapon at normal AB
Weapon at AB-5
Weapon at AB-10
Weapon at AB-15
Weapon at AB-20
Claw at AB-5
2 Wings at AB-5
Bite at AB-5
Tail at AB-5.

Multiattack reduces all those -5s on natural attacks to -2s, and Improved Multiattack removes them entirely. You can also take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike to get more natural attacks, though they get penalties. If you don't use weapons, then your primary natural weapon doesn't take the -5 IIRC and you can apply your full Str modifier to it.

Wait, what? That doesn't make sense. How are you getting the fifth weapon attack? You can only get 4 weapon attacks from BAB, at BAB, BAB-5,BAB-10,and BAB-15.

[magic9mushroom]

Wait, what? That doesn't make sense. How are you getting the fifth weapon attack? You can only get 4 weapon attacks from BAB, at BAB, BAB-5,BAB-10,and BAB-15.

Ok, my brain's asleep. Editing.

(I literally fell asleep on a train today and had to be woken up by the crew when it stopped. Bear with me.)

[Runestar]

Do note that even with improved multiattack, you still only get 1/2 str mod on damage with your secondary attacks. It merely removes the to-hit penalties.

Draconomicon does have the rapidstrike/improved rapidstrike feats though, which lets you make additional attacks with a pair of natural weapons.

[Simba]

I literally fell asleep on a train today and had to be woken up by the crew when it stopped. Bear with me.

Happened to me 2 days ago, but I went past my station and had to wait for an hour for the train back. I got home a little late and my wife was pissed...

About the topic: I did that with a Wemic once, went for Monk, had Multiattack later and did real nice damage with hands and claws.

[Runestar]

About the topic: I did that with a Wemic once, went for Monk, had Multiattack later and did real nice damage with hands and claws.

If you do that, then make you you pick up superior unarmed strike (ToB) as well, improves your unarmed strikes to base 2d6 (for medium).

[Simba]

If you do that, then make you you pick up superior unarmed strike (ToB) as well, improves your unarmed strikes to base 2d6 (for medium).

I would love to play that character once again, but noone lets me play a Wemic. People can play Wizards, all right, but a race that is really not stronger than most? No way! [/whine]

[magic9mushroom]

Here's a question. If you have a creature with Rapidstrike on more than one set of attacks (e.g. a Dragon) and give it the Epic Pseudonatural template, does it get the benefit of both sets of Rapidstrike when in Pseudonatural form, or does it only get one more set of tentacle rakes?

[Mystic Muse]

Can the beast claws item from Savage species be enchanted or no?

[Runeclaw]

If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

If he does this, does he get natural weapon damage on his "unarmed" attacks? Or just base unarmed damage? And does the "unarmed" attacks use up on of his natural weapons? Or can it be assumed to be a headbutt or something?

[ericgrau]

Hardly. Dragons at higher levels have BAB to spare, hitting upwards of +30 and 40.

A Power attack for 10, with improved multiattack, and you're still rocking a Melee attack bonus high enough to hit most members of most parties on a 2, and are doing very respectable damage.

Add in spell buffs, and I've had great wyrms with only 1 combat buff doing around 150-170 damage on an attack.

Gets worse with Wraithstrike, when you can power attack for 20. Add in fog and blindsense, or natural darkness and the same, and you can go against flat-footed touch AC, pretty much guaranteeing hits for good damage. Yes, you'll have a miss chance, but if a dragon likes darkness and fog, he'll likely have blindfighting.

A CR 20 red dragon has a +27 to hit. A level 20 melee has 38-40 AC without any special optimization tricks, nor any special focus on AC, nor even buffs. Simply armor, a +5 from 3-4 sources and a couple +1's or +2's here and there from misc. causes. At the same level the rogue's dex is through the roof netting him the same or higher AC. So that pretty much leaves casters, who ought to have some other kind of protection I hope. Losing 10% of your hits to gain a measly +1 or +2 damage is shooting yourself in the foot at this level. You need splatbook tricks to either negate the AB penalty or to get more damage. Ya wraithstrike is one of those tricks but it's a cheesy way to basically say "I hit" as it throws the concept of AB and AC out the window.

[Salanmander]

A CR 20 red dragon has a +27 to hit. A level 20 melee has 38-40 AC without any special optimization tricks, nor any special focus on AC, nor even buffs.

....Huh?

A CR 20 red dragon (old) has a BAB of +28, with a +36 total attack bonus. The red dragon with +27 to hit (young adult) is cr 13.