[3.5] How would you build a paladin-like character?

[Petrocorus]

So, let's say you want to play a paladin, but you don't want to go through the underpowered Paladin class, at least, not for long. How would you build your character? What base classes would you begin with? What prestige classes would you take?

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I'd just make a cleric and use feats to use a sword.

[Pluto]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.

I dunno how it's going to hold up, but I think it does the "paladin, but better" thing well (3 lost CL, but near-full BA, swift spells, ridiculous saves, conterspells and channeling).

...Or Crusader. That works too.

[KellKheraptis]

Take a Cheater of Mystra. Take Otherworldly. Dump Divine Disciple. Rework Cleric as Cloistered Cleric. Keep the 10 levels of Dweomercheater. Add Prestige Paladin 1. Add XXXX 4 (I prefer Divine Oracle for this, since it gets you evasion in heavy armor and uncanny dodge), own face :D

[CollinPhillips]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

[Lysander]

Just play a warblade who prays a lot and lives ethically. They can still work for a church and call themselves a paladin.

[Keld Denar]

Cleric4/OrdainedChampion5 is pretty boss for the first 9 levels of life. NEARLY full BAB, Smitalicious, Turn Undead powering your class features on top of maybe Law Devotion, and you still cast spells ok. Past there, more cleric would be fine, or Knight of the Raven, or a couple levels of Prestige Pally to augement your spell list. I know you can pick up the spell Holy Sword from the Glory Domain, if thats imporant to you, and Glory is one of Herioneous' expanded domains.

Alternatively, a more arcane focused holy man might pursue the Sorcadin route. Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8 is the default build. 16/20 BAB, 18/20 Sorc casting, and more Cha synergy than you can shake a greatsword at. Try it, I'm sure you'll like it.

[Godskook]

Sorcadin. Comes into its own sometime in the middle of Abjurant Champion.

Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X

Gets Cha to all saves, can get it to damage and AC too, if you want it. With 16 BAB and 9th level casting @ L20, you should be good to go, after ~L10 or so.

[Petrocorus]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.

Prestige Paladin from Unearthed?
What book the Knight of the Raven come from?

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

Well, it seems that a lot of people here consider this is a low-tier 5 class.
We must admit that the Paladin don't gain much after this 5th level.

[Pluto]

Cleric => Fist of Raziel (BoED) and Paladin => Divine Crusader (CD) can work pretty well too.

And I've seen a few people toss around a build I really liked:

Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1 (LoM)/Warmind 5 (EPH)/Sanctified Mind 5/Psychic Weapons Master 5

With Serenity, it winds up with Smites, Powers, Saves and AoO's all tuned to Wisdom.

It also gets all the goodies from Sanctified Mind and Warmind, including Sweeping strikes and 10 levels of Psychic Warrior manifesting.

[Pluto]

Prestige Paladin from Unearthed?

Right

What book the Knight of the Raven come from?

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
It gives the GlorySun Domain, 9/10 CL, full BA, Turning, Smite Undead and it makes 5-ft steps provoke AoO's.

Fist of Raziel is less obscure and about as good.

Well, it seems that a lot of people here consider this is a low-tier 5 class.

That doesn't mean it's not possible for a Paladin player to have fun.

In most games I've played (usually levels 1-7), the Paladin is pretty incredible:
Good saves, AC and HP make it nigh-indestructible (except v. Wizards).
BA and weapon damage are all that really matter at low levels and PA+lance+Spirited Charge lets the Paladin produce high damage until pretty far along in his career.
Social skills and high charisma give the Paladin the spotlight fairly often.

It's only high-optimization games played at high levels that really make the Pally look bad.
(Which I heard the one-shot we're running next week is going to be. Normally, I use a Paladin straight out of the can.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crusader. If you're hurting for saves, Pal2/Crusader x

[Petrocorus]

That doesn't mean it's not possible for a Paladin player to have fun. In most games I've played (usually levels 1-7), the Paladin was pretty incredible: good saves, AC and HP make it nigh-indestructible (unless you strictly fight Wizards, anyway). BA and weapon damage are significant at low levels and PA+lance+Spirited Charge lets the Paladin keep doing high damage. Social skills and high charisma give the Paladin the spotlight fairly often.

It's only high-optimization games played at high levels that really make the Pally look bad.
(Which I heard the one-shot we're running next week is going to be. Normally, I use a Paladin straight out of the can.)

Below lvl 6-7, i would not really bother indeed. At 1st level, the fighter and the pally are probably the most powerful classes. I'm afraid to play at high lvl with CoDzilla and wizard and feel totally useless.

[krossbow]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

Once you pass the first few levels you basically stop getting anything.

[Petrocorus]

Sorcadin.
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X

Gets Cha to all saves, can get it to damage and AC too, if you want it. With 16 BAB and 9th level casting @ L20, you should be good to go, after ~L10 or so.

That seems very good, but how do you manage for the armour?

[Ganurath]

Most of the Paladin character is roleplay. I suggest a Crusader with Stone Power starting off, coupled with the Martial Spirit stance to allow for some solid tanking. A fun trick to keep in mind is that while you need to move 10ft to charge, you enter your opponent's square to bull rush, so you can use Charging Minotaur on any foe that isn't adjacent if you need to beat tough ACs.

For the long term... It depends on what sort of "paladin" you want to play. If you want a tank, my limited resources point toward Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Charge, and Improved Trip. Your DM would have to be an idiot to allow those last two to give you infinite attacks, but if you can find a way to get a full attack on a charge, you have a solid shot at tearing most opponents apart in the opening attack.

1: Stone Power
Human: Improved Shield Bash
Flaw: Shield Focus (Heavy)
Flaw: Agile Shield Fighter
3: Shield Charge
6: Improved Trip (if your DM allows you to retrain Stone Power to Combat Expertise)

[Keld Denar]

Spellsword1 gives -10% ASF, which would allow you to wear a suit of Mithril Chain Shirt at not penalty. Otherwise you just go unarmored, nab Arcane Preperation, and use Greater Luminous Armor for your armor. Its Abjuration, so Abjurant Champion's bonus would apply to it. Also, you have Shield, which gives +9 AC as a swift aciton, so that should be up nearly every combat by mid levels.

Or you could do both. Armor is a nice place to pick up bonuses like Freedom or Soulfire cheaply, and nothing would stop you from having a Chain Shirt and G Luminous Armor on at the same time. You'd only get the best on that applies at the moment, but thats gives you a 2 layered defenese in case you get dispelled or something.

[Mystic Muse]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

its complete lack of good features past level 5?

And before somebody says spellcasting, at level 5 the Paladin can Multiclass to Sorceror or wizard and in the case of wizard have 8th level spells by level 20 or in the case of Sorceror (the more likely one due to stat synergy) 7th level spells.

[HunterOfJello]

Crusader

or

Crusader/Warblade

or

Cleric

or

Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's elegance in simplicity. Cleric 4/fighter 1/Pr Paladin 2/divine caster PrC X. Most of the goodies of being a 5th level paladin in 2 levels, 3 if you count the fighter level.

[Devils_Advocate]

Just what is a "paladin", conceptually? Is it a holy warrior who wields divine power as a sword and shield, metaphorically speaking?

[JaronK]

Crusader 20 would get you there. Fighter 2/Crusader 18 might be even better.

Cloistered Cleric 7/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1 would work quite well too, if you use DMM:Persist to keep Divine Power up. You could use Church Inquisitor levels in there too if you like. Knowledge Devotion and Holy Mount would be great... with Holy Mount, you get all the Paladin's class features with that build plus so much more (sometimes you use spells to simulate their spell likes, of course).

JaronK

[Mushroom Ninja]

Psychic Warrior 20 actually works pretty well if you call your psionic powers "Divine Inspiration".

[Indon]

So, let's say you want to play a paladin, but you don't want to go through the underpowered Paladin class, at least, not for long. How would you build your character? What base classes would you begin with? What prestige classes would you take?

Be a Clericzilla.

Being a more powerful meleer than a melee class is one of the big things the C-zilla does.

[Gnaeus]

Below lvl 6-7, i would not really bother indeed. At 1st level, the fighter and the pally are probably the most powerful classes. I'm afraid to play at high lvl with CoDzilla and wizard and feel totally useless.

Actually, at first level Druid, Crusader and Warblade are probably most powerful. The druid's riding dog is likely to beat a first level paladin.

[Flickerdart]

You can use Initiate of Milil and the Harmonious Knight sub levels to qualify for Sublime Chord using Suel Arcanamach casting, and then go Abjurant Champion. You just barely get 9th level spells and your BAB suffers a little bit, but you'll be a competent gish.

[AslanCross]

Crusader, definitely. If I were to multiclass with Paladin, I'd take OneWinged4ngel's paladin.

[Petrocorus]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.

I have read the classes' descriptions, and i feel there is a problem.
You cannot qualify for Church Inquisitor before lvl 5 (skill required), Ordained Champion lvl 4 (skill) and Prestige Paladin lvl 4 (BAB). I haven't access to Knight of the Raven, can you qualify for it after only 3 lvl of Cleric?

Sorcadin.
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X

Is it possible to use the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat to qualify earlier as Spellsword with Pal 4/ Sor 1?

Cloistered Cleric 7/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1 would work quite well too, if you use DMM:Persist to keep Divine Power up. You could use Church Inquisitor levels in there too if you like. Knowledge Devotion and Holy Mount

What is DMM: persist? Knowledge devotion is a spell?

Can you remind me where i can find the Cloistered Cleric ACF?

Actually, at first level Druid, Crusader and Warblade are probably most powerful. The druid's riding dog is likely to beat a first level paladin.

I must confess i've never paid attention to the riding dog. And i really got to get ToB apparently.

Has anyone tried to build something with the Favoured Soul class?

[Optimystik]

What is DMM: persist? Knowledge devotion is a spell?

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, a feat in Complete Divine that lets you spend turning attempts to fuel metamagic instead of raising the spell level or casting time (for prepared and spontaneous casters respectively). DMM is especially useful if your turning is not very powerful (e.g. you have levels in a PrC that does not advance turning, e.g. Sacred Fist.)

Knowledge Devotion is a feat from Complete Champion. It lets you use a Knowledge check against a certain type of creature to gain an insight bonus on attack and damage vs. that creature. (For example, Know [Religion] gives you a bonus vs. Undead.) The higher the check, the bigger the bonus, thus this move synergizes extremely well with Cloistered Cleric. This is especially useful because insight bonuses are hard to come by.

Can you remind me where i can find the Cloistered Cleric ACF?

Here

[Amphetryon]

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Fist of Raziel 5 does most of what I would want a Paladin to do, better than a Paladin does. DMM Persist through Nightsticks and better spellcasting. Death Domain and Avenging Strike are what I might consider for non-obvious feats.