Draconic Feats [3.5]

[unre9istered]

Looking at a Dragonfire Adept (DfA) I see that they get the Dragontouched feat for free. This feat gives you the Dragonblooded subtype and lets you take Draconic feats as though you were a sorcerer of your level.
So now I find myself wondering, "What Draconic feats are there that are any good if you can't cast arcane spells?"
In other words, is the ability to take Draconic feats when you're not an arcane caster really useful?

I see Draconic Senses, Dragonfire Assault (except DfA's aren't melee characters), Dragonfire Channeling (except DfA's can't turn), Dragonfire Inspiration (DfA's aren't bards), and Dragonfire Strike (DfA's don't get Sneak Attack or any of the other powers required)
If you take Draconic Heritage (which partially duplicates the effect of Dragontouched and is lame if you already have it) then you can get Draconic Knowledge, Draconic Resistance, and Draconic Skin, and Draconic Toughness. The rest need arcane spells to activate.

So I see 1 useful feat (Draconic Senses) and 3 more meh feats behind a largely useless one. Am I missing something?

[Sinfire Titan]

Look in Races of the Dragon for a few more.


Just a House Rule, but I've contemplated allowing people with the Dragontouched feat or Dragonic Heritage feat to take Dragonmark feats in spite of Race.

[Kosjsjach]

I'm AFB, but you could perhaps get one of the Draconic Auras (Draconomicon, I believe). With the dragonblood subtype, the benefits scale with your character level. Again, I'm not sure, but I think Draconic Aura: Senses gives you an eventual +4 bonus to Initiative, Listen, and Spot; Draconic Aura: Energy: Fire would get you an eventual +4 DC on your breath weapon (only when you used fire, obviously).

[unre9istered]

These came from Races of the Dragon as well as Dragon Magic. I can't find any that aren't reprinted in one of these two.

[Starbuck_II]

Looking at a Dragonfire Adept (DfA) I see that they get the Dragontouched feat for free. This feat gives you the Dragonblooded subtype and lets you take Draconic feats as though you were a sorcerer of your level.
So now I find myself wondering, "What Draconic feats are there that are any good if you can't cast arcane spells?"
In other words, is the ability to take Draconic feats when you're not an arcane caster really useful?

I see Draconic Senses, Dragonfire Assault (except DfA's aren't melee characters), Dragonfire Channeling (except DfA's can't turn), Dragonfire Inspiration (DfA's aren't bards), and Dragonfire Strike (DfA's don't get Sneak Attack or any of the other powers required)
If you take Draconic Heritage (which partially duplicates the effect of Dragontouched and is lame if you already have it) then you can get Draconic Knowledge, Draconic Resistance, and Draconic Skin, and Draconic Toughness. The rest need arcane spells to activate.

So I see 1 useful feat (Draconic Senses) and 3 more meh feats behind a largely useless one. Am I missing something?

You can get Sneak attack from Tome of Battle feat Martial Stance (choose Assassin's stance).

[RagnaroksChosen]

dont the invocations count as casting a spell for the purposes of heritage feats?

[unre9istered]

I can't find where it calls out that they count as "arcane spells". If it does then you can add Draconic Vigor (might be overpowered as this allows unlimited healing), Draconic Armor, Draconic Claw, Draconic Persuasion, and Draconic Presence.

[zagan]

I can't find where it calls out that they count as "arcane spells". If it does then you can add Draconic Vigor (might be overpowered as this allows unlimited healing), Draconic Armor, Draconic Claw, Draconic Persuasion, and Draconic Presence.

No, It doesn't work in the class description it specificaly stat that they can't.

[...],a dragonfire adept cannot benefit from the spell focus feat or from draconic feats that let her convert or spend an arcane spell slot to produce some other effect. (Dragon magic p25)

[Nidogg]

If you house rule in divine spells function as arcane for feats a druid/dragonfire adept can bite, breathweapon with no reflex and then use spell-like abilitys!

[RagnaroksChosen]

No, It doesn't work in the class description it specificaly stat that they can't.

a dragonfire adept cannot benefit from the spell focus feat or from draconic feats that let her convert or spend an arcane spell slot to produce some other effect. (Dragon magic p25)

agreed though some your not converting or spending arcane spell slots for things like draconic claw or vigor. its when you cast a spell you get x extra bonus.

[zagan]

agreed though some your not converting or spending arcane spell slots for things like draconic claw or vigor. its when you cast a spell you get x extra bonus.

In those case it might work, but it's probably DM call.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm AFB, but you could perhaps get one of the Draconic Auras (Draconomicon, I believe). With the dragonblood subtype, the benefits scale with your character level. Again, I'm not sure, but I think Draconic Aura: Senses gives you an eventual +4 bonus to Initiative, Listen, and Spot; Draconic Aura: Energy: Fire would get you an eventual +4 DC on your breath weapon (only when you used fire, obviously).

I don't think it works that way. Draconic Auras work in different ways depending on the character: Dragon Shamans use their progression, Marshals treat their Draconic Auras as Major Marshal Auras, Dragons sacrifice their spell slots for auras of an equivalent level, and anyone that takes Draconic Aura only gets a +1 bonus. I don't recall Draconic Auras increase in power if you had the Dragonblood subtype (otherwise, Auras would be pretty powerful; specifically Vigor, if you get the Dragon Shaman auras to be considered Draconic Auras for purposes of the feat).

There's one thing you can do, and that's only if you're going the Eldritch Disciple path with Cleric and Dragonfire Adept. Dragonblooded Clerics get a unique racial substitution set of levels that allow you to Turn Energy instead of Turning Undead; the catch is that this Turn Energy counts as Turn Undead for purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes and whatnot. The first level ability isn't so great (effectively a Protection from Energy effect that stacks with Protection from Energy), but if you get more levels, you can effectively get immunity to a single energy type in exchange for one spell slot (and since you can then get more immunities, you can get Fire or Cold and become immune to it!).

The other idea is to qualify for dragonblooded prestige classes. If the prestige class requires you to be dragonblooded and allows you arcane spellcasting but doesn't require arcane spellcasting progression (such as "being able to cast X level spells) as a prerequisite, you technically already qualify.

Certainly, getting the Dragontouched feat for free isn't as interesting as the other things you get (Scales for Natural Armor, breath and breath effects, at-will invocations), but it gets you somewhere. It all depends on what you wish to use it.

[Nate the Snake]

I don't recall Draconic Auras increase in power if you had the Dragonblood subtype

That actually is how the Draconic Aura feat works. It's sort of like how anyone can take Devotion feats, but having turn undead lets you get more mileage out of them.

otherwise, Auras would be pretty powerful

The bonus from the Draconic Aura feat scales slower than Dragon Shaman auras and has a lower cap. Besides, if it didn't scale, it wouldn't be worth as much at higher levels.

specifically Vigor, if you get the Dragon Shaman auras to be considered Draconic Auras for purposes of the feat.

Dragon Shaman auras already count as draconic auras. The feat and the class both use the same list.

[T.G. Oskar]

That actually is how the Draconic Aura feat works. It's sort of like how anyone can take Devotion feats, but having turn undead lets you get more mileage out of them.

I...noted. I also noted it says "class level" instead of character level, which...is quite odd. Then again, there seems to be no change, so...

The bonus from the Draconic Aura feat scales slower than Dragon Shaman auras and has a lower cap. Besides, if it didn't scale, it wouldn't be worth as much at higher levels.

I think we all know WotC has a long history of non-scaling feat choices. Core itself is the biggest offender; otherwise, Weapon Focus and its tree, Dodge + its tree, TWF and its tree and perhaps the skill feats would have been far better choices.

Then again, Dragon Magic emerged right at the moment where WotC realized feats had to scale to become important, so...

Dragon Shaman auras already count as draconic auras. The feat and the class both use the same list.

Yes and no. I recall they use the same list; however, the list on Dragon Magic lacks the Vigor aura. I am of the people that states that it must have been forgotten, but I have to think that most people will limit the choices to those only and exclusively on the aura list presented in Dragon Magic, which may be a tad detrimental since the Vigor aura is really good. Swiftness is a close second because it increases all speeds, and Senses is good for initiative.

That also reminds me: I also noticed it allows you to, theoretically, get Draconic Legacy and newer spells. It also does allow you to get Draconic Heritage, which makes things really, really good (since you can get Dragontouched, then use Dragonfire Inspiration with a weird attack type), even if the main benefit of Draconic Heritage is superseded by the Dragontouched feat. Both are interesting, though; one grants you bonuses to skills, saving throws and ability to choose the other which is excellent for getting a class skill list and the spells you desire plus more bonuses to saving throws (that stacks with the earlier feat). It...actually opens a bit more choices, then (Draconic Knowledge + Knowledge Devotion, for example...)

[unre9istered]

That also reminds me: I also noticed it allows you to, theoretically, get Draconic Legacy and newer spells. It also does allow you to get Draconic Heritage, which makes things really, really good (since you can get Dragontouched, then use Dragonfire Inspiration with a weird attack type), even if the main benefit of Draconic Heritage is superseded by the Dragontouched feat. Both are interesting, though; one grants you bonuses to skills, saving throws and ability to choose the other which is excellent for getting a class skill list and the spells you desire plus more bonuses to saving throws (that stacks with the earlier feat). It...actually opens a bit more choices, then (Draconic Knowledge + Knowledge Devotion, for example...)

By Draconic Legacy I'm assuming you meant Draconic Heritage? If so the spells you can get out of it don't do a Dragonfire Adept any good as they get no spells per day to cast. Dragonfire Inspiration is no good to them without bardic music.

[T.G. Oskar]

By Draconic Legacy I'm assuming you meant Draconic Heritage? If so the spells you can get out of it don't do a Dragonfire Adept any good as they get no spells per day to cast. Dragonfire Inspiration is no good to them without bardic music.

I actually mean the combination of both (you don't get the new spells unless you get Draconic Legacy).

I am also aware that you cannot cast those spells via Dragonfire Adept. You can, though, as part of Cleric/DFA/Eldritch Disciple, since those would enter into your Cleric spell list (by RAW, it apparently applies to any spell list). Same as how getting into a class with Bardic Music would allow you to use Dragonfire Inspiration.

The reason why I mentioned that is because they work better for dips rather than full entries into the class. Even a 1st level dip into Bard is fantastic, since you can use that acquisition of Draconic Heritage into your benefit.