[3.5 ToB Rules Lawyer] About Martial Discipline weapons...

[Saintheart]

...Basically I'm putting together some unarmed swordsage variants from ToB for the Ghostlord section of the Red Hand of Doom campaign I'm running. I'm going for themes rather than killing players, so I've got one of the USSes using a +1 quarterstaff that has the Martial Discipline quality thrown on it.

As ToB devotees (you know who you are ;) ) would know, this quality basically boosts the weapon's effectiveness from +1 to +3 when you're using a maneuver or stance from the discipline to which the weapon is keyed. And ToB makes it clear you can stack multiple disciplines onto a weapon thereby creating much buttkicking goodness if you're, say, using a Stone Dragon stance and you initiate a Shadow Hand strike maneuver while using a +1 Shadow Hand Stone Dragon greatsword or the like. As a result, for that strike, your attack rolls (going by the ToB example) get pumped to +7 for that strike -- +1 (presumably) from the weapon, +3 from using a Stone Dragon stance, and +3 from using a Shadow Hand maneuver.

One thing I am confused about, though, is this: if you've got a weapon with the Martial Discipline quality keyed to Shadow Hand, you're in a Shadow Hand stance and then initiate a Shadow Hand strike maneuver, does that similarly pump your attack roll to +7 in the same way as if you had a multidisciplinary (ha ha) weapon?

Thoughts from the brains trust would be most appreciated?

[Dusk Eclipse]

No, since they are bonus from the same source, it would only advance it to +3 (still quite good)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The above is correct, as is your statement about having two disciplines on a weapon (tough to use though to make it worthwhile you'd need, I'd say three strikes from a discipline other than the one your stance you never leave is in).

Also I've always preferred boosts over strikes it's not hard to optimize to get pounce and to the point that boosted full attacks out class strikes.

[hewhosaysfish]

As ToB devotees (you know who you are ;) ) would know, this quality basically boosts the weapon's effectiveness from +1 to +3 when you're using a maneuver or stance from the discipline to which the weapon is keyed. And ToB makes it clear you can stack multiple disciplines onto a weapon thereby creating much buttkicking goodness if you're, say, using a Stone Dragon stance and you initiate a Shadow Hand strike maneuver while using a +1 Shadow Hand Stone Dragon greatsword or the like. As a result, for that strike, your attack rolls (going by the ToB example) get pumped to +7 for that strike -- +1 (presumably) from the weapon, +3 from using a Stone Dragon stance, and +3 from using a Shadow Hand maneuver.

Isn't the increase given by this weapon (from +1 to +3) an increase by 2? So you should get +5 not +7?

[Douglas]

Isn't the increase given by this weapon (from +1 to +3) an increase by 2? So you should get +5 not +7?

It gives +1 just for having the right maneuver readied. That is already in addition to the weapon's enhancement bonus. If you have a +1 Martial Discipline x2 weapon and at least one maneuver readied from each of the relevant disciplines, that's already a +3 on attack rolls. If you are actively using maneuvers from both disciplines, such as with a stance from one and a strike from the other, that bonus increases by 2 for each discipline, giving a total of 7.

[Godskook]

Note: The bonus granted by discipline weapons is given only to attack rolls. I've personally misread it about a dozen times, so I think it bears repeating.

[Master_Rahl22]

Agreed, only one of the Shadow Hand attack boosts would be active if you're in a SH stance and use a SH strike.

Slightly off topic, one of my favorite things to do with a ToB character is give them a +1 Martial Discipline Collision weapon, with the discipline chosen from their favorite stance or where most of the strikes come from. This leads to a +4 to attack, +6 to damage weapon at the cost of +4 enhancement bonus.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Depending on whether you consider attacking while under the effects of a boost to be "using" a maneuver (I do, but I've run into a few DMs that don't), you could get an ever higher bonus. For instance, if you're wielding a +1 desert wind, shadow hand, stone dragon greatsword and initiate Burning Blade as a swift action then attack with Mountain Hammer as a standard action while in the Child of Shadow stance, you'd get +10 to the attack roll, not too shabby for a +4 equivalent weapon.

But yes, you only get the bonus once per discipline, so having a +1 shadow hand weapon only gets you up to +4 even if you're using three shadow hand maneuvers on your turn. To make the most use of discipline weapons, you really have to sit in stances from one discipline while favoring one discipline for strikes and one for boosts.

[Douglas]

Depending on whether you consider attacking while under the effects of a boost to be "using" a maneuver (I do, but I've run into a few DMs that don't), you could get an ever higher bonus. For instance, if you're wielding a +1 desert wind, shadow hand, stone dragon greatsword and initiate Burning Blade as a swift action then attack with Mountain Hammer as a standard action while in the Child of Shadow stance, you'd get +10 to the attack roll, not too shabby for a +4 equivalent weapon.

Why stop there? Be a Ruby Knight Vindicator, spend a turn attempt to get another swift action, and get +13 attack bonus for a +5 equivalent weapon. Depending on your DM's ruling for whether you can use that ability multiple times in the same round, you could conceivably go all the way to a +28 bonus for a +10 equivalent weapon.

That would blow 6 turn attempts and almost all of your maneuvers readied, but Time Stands Still with 7 boosts added on and that extra attack bonus would be quite an impressive set of attacks.

Hmm, I'm suddenly struck with the urge to build a RKV/Master of Nine specifically to pull this off. How much casting does RKV require to enter the class, again?

[imperialspectre]

None at all - the only relevant requirement is "able to turn or rebuke undead." A couple levels of cloistered cleric and one of prestige paladin (for battle blessing) would certainly be nice, though.

[lsfreak]

Hmm, I'm suddenly struck with the urge to build a RKV/Master of Nine specifically to pull this off. How much casting does RKV require to enter the class, again?

Technically none, just Turn/Rebuke.

Don't forget double Avalanche of Blades (courtesy of Divine Recovery)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Why stop there?

The only reason to stop there is that that's not at all build-dependent--any martial adept can get each of a boost, a strike, and a stance from three different disciplines. A RKV/Mo9 is nice, but as you said it uses up a ton of turn attempts for 1 round of bonuses, which gives you an amazing single round but not a lot of staying power.

If we're talking about specific builds, though, here's a thought for a one-trick pony--qualify for RKV as a Crusader/Suel Arcanamach, picking up turning via the dip of your choice. Take a level of swordsage and pick up Martial Study (Iron Heart) to get a lot of boosts quickly. Suel Arcanamach 3 auto-extends spells cast on yourself, so the whole point of this build is to cast a whole bunch of swift action casting, 1-round duration buffs in one round and attack with 7 boosts in the next round. Once again, you're really powerful for only 1 round of combat, but it's one hell of a round.