[3.5] Non-evil char for poison use.

[joe]

So, my group has a player who wants their character to be able to use poison. Assassin requires an evil alignment so that's pretty much a no-go. I was wondering if there are any other classes/prestige classes that allow for poison use, preferably relatively early in the class.

[Zaq]

Ninja gets it, and I'm pretty sure there's a feat somewhere (PHB2? DotU? Something, at least) that gives it to you.

[arguskos]

Ninja gets it, and I'm pretty sure there's a feat somewhere (PHB2? DotU? Something, at least) that gives it to you.

Drow of the Underdark, Master of Poisons is the name.

[Lysander]

Technically anyone can use poison, just that most people risk poisoning themselves when applying it to their weapon. Why not use a race or template that grants immunity to poison?

Or play a druid and turn into a snake.

[Ranos]

snip

But bashing their heads in instead is perfectly fine.
We're talking good character here, not a guy with vow of peace. Good characters still kill people.

[Starbuck_II]

Become an Avenger (non-evil) Assaasin.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

[Kaiyanwang]

Ninja gets it, and I'm pretty sure there's a feat somewhere (PHB2? DotU? Something, at least) that gives it to you.

Please note that this feat has NOT the prerequisite of not being good.. so you you cannot negate the lack of requirment of being evil for poison use, or at least the un-obligation of being not good!

[Iku Rex]

Master of Posions is a good solution. Other than that the List of Stuff is the place to look.

Poison Use
Assassin 1, ecl 6
Black Flame Zealot 2, ecl 7, Complete Divine
Blackguard 1, ecl 7, DMG
Whisperknife 6, ecl 11, Races of the Wild
Justice of Weald and Woe
Monk of the Long Death
Ninja 3, Complete Adventurer
Zhentarim Spy
Shadow HUnter 1, ecl 6, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Scorpion Wraith 1, ecl 6, Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik
Bard 1, drow substitution level, Drow of the Underdark
Rogue 1, drow substitution level, Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lloth 2, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark

[DragoonWraith]

Dark Sun Bard (Dark Sun Campaign Setting, pg. 28) gets Poison Use at 2 and Improved Poison Use (free action poison application) at 6. Also get abilities to make poisons more cheaply and increase their DC. About the only effective way to use poisons that I know of, and no alignment requirement.

[Telonius]

Check out Book of Exalted Deeds for "Ravages." Really, they're not poisons, honest! I promise!

EDIT: Also, a homebrew I made awhile ago.

[Tahoo]

^

Book of Exalted Deeds has many good aligned poiso... I mean ravages! Yes...

[GoatToucher]

Is poison use an evil act? I know that it is "dishonorable" behavior for Paladins, and that using poison is aften against the law, but is it inherently evil according to RAW?

[Starbuck_II]

Is poison use an evil act? I know that it is "dishonorable" behavior for Paladins, and that using poison is aften against the law, but is it inherently evil according to RAW?

In Core: non-good/evil. Just not honorable.
BoED says it is Evil. At least not Exalted.

[tyckspoon]

Is poison use an evil act? I know that it is "dishonorable" behavior for Paladins, and that using poison is aften against the law, but is it inherently evil according to RAW?

No. Exalted Deeds says that anything that causes excessive torment is evil, and singles out poisons as things that almost universally do so (I believe it allows for using things like Drow sleep poison, which is all kinds of ironic). It generally suggests that chopping your enemies to pieces with sharp implements, burning them alive with spells, and inflicting massive mental traumas are all ok, tho, as are most of the other things adventurers regularly do that are logically pretty horrible. There's a reason the alignment suggestions of Exalted Deeds are often not taken very seriously.

[hamishspence]

Defenders of the Faith also suggests that the reason poison use is against the Paladin's code, is that it is evil.

[Telonius]

Amusingly enough, the "Poison" spell does not have the Evil descriptor. However, Deathwatch - which commits the horrible act of finding out whether or not things are alive - has the Evil descriptor.

[hamishspence]

It's been up and down- in 3.0, it didn't have it, in BoVD it was suggested that Deathwatch be added to the list of spells with the evil descriptor, and in 3.5, it finally gained it.

Then, classes and PRCs with a "Must be good-aligned" description- the Healer in Miniatures Handbook, and the Slayer of Domiel, in BoED, gained the spell as part of their casting lists.

I figure that this is a sign that it's been effectively retconned from the 3.5 PHB version, to the older, nonevil version.

[arguskos]

Please note that this feat has NOT the prerequisite of not being good.. so you you cannot negate the lack of requirment of being evil for poison use, or at least the un-obligation of being not good!

No it doesn't. Master of Poisons has no requirements at all, actually.

[tyckspoon]

It's been up and down- in 3.0, it didn't have it, in BoVD it was suggested that Deathwatch be added to the list of spells with the evil descriptor, and in 3.5, it finally gained it.

Then, classes and PRCs with a "Must be good-aligned" description- the Healer in Miniatures Handbook, and the Slayer of Domiel, in BoED, gained the spell as part of their casting lists.

I figure that this is a sign that it's been effectively retconned from the 3.5 PHB version, to the older, nonevil version.

Ever since I first saw somebody else mention it I've gone along with the idea that it's a layout/copypasta error from being close to Death Knell. Don't know why they never errata'd out the Evil tag, tho.

[Beelzebub1111]

You could just be a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from MM3.
Humanoid (reptilian)
Dex +2 Con +2 Cha -2
Small size
30ft speed
Chameleon Skin: +5 on hide checks
Poison Use
Hold Breath: 4 x Constitution score before making checks
+4 on Balance, Jump, and Swim
+3 Natural Armor
2 claws and bite for 1d3 each
Bolas and Nets as martial weapons
LA +1

[JonestheSpy]

The whole poison=evil thing is an interesting example of the real world and gaming not mixing well.

For most of history, combat was really not all that lethal. Battles would be won when moral broke and one side fled, people would be wounded and out of the fight but not killed, etc. Wars were not won by attrition, and the few groups that were willing to kill everyone in their path, like the Mongols, were especially feared aberrations.

So poison meant automatically trying to murder someone - surrender or other ways of winning are not options. So in that light, poison is pretty evil.

But as we all know, gaming is nothing like that - people fight as well with 1 hit point as they do with 100, DM's rarely bother checking for moral and the like, etc. Combat is regularly resolved by killing all your enemies. So really, there is absolutely no reason that using poison is more immoral than attacking someone with a vorpal blade or fireballing them.

[randomhero00]

Unless part of the act requires sacrificing someone or something just ignore all the evil/good descriptors for the most part. They really should have never included the alignment system as a mechanic in the first place.

The whole poison=evil thing is an interesting example of the real world and gaming not mixing well.

For most of history, combat was really not all that lethal. Battles would be won when moral broke and one side fled, people would be wounded and out of the fight but not killed, etc. Wars were not won by attrition, and the few groups that were willing to kill everyone in their path, like the Mongols, were especially feared aberrations.

lol wat? It's true that out-right death-blows (and slaughtering of whole armies) were rarer than most tend to think but combat was very lethal and wounding someone was often the same as poisoning them (often worse) because of infection. Instead of dieing on the battlefield they died a week later after their limb(s) rotted off.

Not only that but there are many poisons that kill painlessly or with very little pain. Athen's often used (poison) hemlock for executions (Socrates for instance.) It was considered one of the more peaceful ways to go. Better than dieing from gangrene.

[DragoonWraith]

The primary reason poison was considered "evil", from my understanding, is that anyone could use poison. It was an equalizer in a time when such things were considered evil. Poison could allow an inferior person to kill their superior (whether it was a woman poisoning her husband, a peasant poisoning a lord, or a lord poisoning a king), which threatened the social order and was therefore "evil".

Crossbows were "evil" for the exact same reason.

Or, at least, so it has been explained to me.

[hamishspence]

In the Mercedes Lackey short story A Woman's Weapon, when the victim mentions "They say that poison is a woman's weapon", the heroines of the story reply with:

"Not a woman's weapon. Poison is a coward's weapon. It is the weapon of choice for someone who is too craven to face an enemy openly, too craven even to come in striking range of his enemy himself. It's the weapon of choice for someone who is unwilling to take person risks, but is totally without scruples when it comes to risking others."

I'm guessing this is the general tack that D&D-type settings take.

[DragoonWraith]

In general the rule makes a ton more sense for ingested poisons than any other type. But most D&D characters deal with injury poisons, which is where the discrepency comes from.

[Velden]

Using poison is evil when it could lead to an instant death or is used with the intention to kill the target [Too much Con damage, "save or die", for example].

But using a drug/poison in order to incapacitate a target without killing it...I would say that´s more leaned to the good side than just stabing the enemy to death...effects that could be considered for a "good" poison are: Sleep effect, paralisis, dex damage. All temporal effects.

Of course in both cases everything depends under the circumstances, if the "good assasin" uses a poison to make his target sleep while the roof is falling...I wouldn´t call that being "good" at all.

[Stubbed Tongue]

But bashing their heads in instead is perfectly fine.
We're talking good character here, not a guy with vow of peace. Good characters still kill people.

Epic answer. Love it.

Most people/DMs/players think poison use is evil when in reality it would more likely be illegal.

To the OP: you could just allow the PC to take 'craft poison skill' or 'harvest poison skill' or whatever.

[DragoonWraith]

Poison really seems far more dishonorable than evil, though. I wouldn't even say it's chaotic, it's just decidedly unlawful.

Heh, unless you're in a Drow-controlled area. Then it's perfectly legal.

[JaronK]

My favorite assassin/poison build is Unseelie Fey Whispergnome Factotum 10/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Mindbender 1. Add more Factotum as you level up. Take Master of Poisons, Darkstalker, Sickening Strike, Terrifying Strike, Mindsight, and any other feats you like. Make sure you've got Assassin's Stance, and take other nice thematic manuevers.

Your primary weapons will be a +1 Gnomish Quickrazor of Assassination and a +1 Splitting Bow (any type) of Assassination. Use a Tooth of Leraje to make these +5 as needed. The Assassination enchantment adds 1d6 sneak attack to your attacks and adds the enhancement bonus of the weapon to your poison save DCs. Use Minor Creation to create as much Black Lotus poison as you need... when monsters get too resistant to that, there's another poison out there that's also plant based and is DC 26 (though only 2d6 con damage instead of 3d6). Use Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike to lower the saves of your opponents by 4, and Unseelie Fey will also lower their saves by your charisma bonus when you get up close. In melee their saves will be lower but you only get one or two poison strikes per round... at range you get splitting and all your arrows are poisoned so it's that much nastier. Go to town!

JaronK

[Starbuck_II]

Your primary weapons will be a +1 Gnomish Quickrazor of Assassination and a +1 Splitting Bow (any type) of Assassination. Use a Tooth of Leraje to make these +5 as needed. The Assassination enchantment adds 1d6 sneak attack to your attacks and adds the enhancement bonus of the weapon to your poison save DCs. Use Minor Creation to create as much Black Lotus poison as you need... when monsters get too resistant to that, there's another poison out there that's also plant based and is DC 26 (though only 2d6 con damage instead of 3d6). Use Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike to lower the saves of your opponents by 4, and Unseelie Fey will also lower their saves by your charisma bonus when you get up close. In melee their saves will be lower but you only get one or two poison strikes per round... at range you get splitting and all your arrows are poisoned so it's that much nastier. Go to town!

JaronK

I've heard of sacrificing your soul, but sacrificing your teeth for power? That can only lead to Madness.