Evil Caster... Dude...

[Ixil]

Greetings!

If you wanted to make an evil non-summoner, non-undead creater necromancer dude, what would you create. Suppose 28 point buy, core, races of, complete, and forgotten "stuff"... Oh, and no wizard, no melee cleric, just caster...
Thanks!

[Optimystik]

Why non-wizard? They are the best "non-summoner, non-undead-creator" necromancers out there, due to all the negative energy/debuff effects they get. Shivering Touch and Enervation alone are worth the price of admission.

Sorcerer is probably your next best bet. Dread Necromancer has its uses as well, though it is generally better at the "army of undead" thing.

[taltamir]

non undead creating necromancer?
well, that leaves "damages via undeath, steals souls, speaks with the dead". and the like... some of those are cleric exclusive (which can, by default, command undead, create undead, etc). Or you can play a wizard / sorcerer...
wizard sorcerers suck in terms of undead raising and control... any evil cleric does it better then them. but wizards/sorcerers have some very powerful "necromantic" spells that are very effective.

this is one of the most effective spells for example:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm

arcane thesis it + some easy metamagic and you can reduce might enemies into nothing without a save. Just hit them and bypass SR.
Say you are 10th level and fight a 10th level wizard / cleric. the likely have no SR so its just a ranged touch attack. Use a rod of maximize and also empower it, you get 4 + 1d4/2 negative levels, no save. that drops them from CL10 to CL2 through 5... so they are limited to 1st level spells to 3rd level spells. One more hit and they are dead (and come back as a wight)

[taltamir]

ok wait, i see now you said non wizard... how about sorcerer?
you want to be a necromancer, that means casting magic... so if you don't want a cleric or a wizard and sorcerer you are left with bards (no necromantic powers whatsoever), psions (no necromantic powers that I know of, not too familiar with those), druids (can create undead IIRC), and favored souls (same as clerics only cast off charisma)... then you go into exotic classes from other books... i guess maybe a warlock could do.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Warlock are great for the evil caster vibe, but necromancer they are not.

AFAIK there is only one invocation which deals with undead, (dead walks or something like that), it animates undead for a short amount of time, unless you pay the onix cost.

[Ixil]

Greetings!

If you wanted to make an evil non-summoner, non-undead creater necromancer dude, what would you create. Suppose 28 point buy, core, races of, complete, and forgotten "stuff"... Oh, and no wizard, no melee cleric, just caster...
Thanks!

As you can see, I said no wizard (sorcerer I wouldn´t mind if someone could make a build with him that wouldn´t suck)... And clerics, I just don't want the typical Divine huber-buffs that overpowers everyone in melee... If someone can come up with a cleric that won't go into melee (in fact, I'm ok with even not using armor...) that would be great...

Oh, and I agree, Enervation is great...

[Yorrin]

If I'm reading this right, he's looking for help with a BBEG that doesnt have PC classes >_>

If that's the case, I don't really know what to say (Adept?)

If not, stick with non-undead related Necromany spells. Debuffs/Curses/Blindess type spells are great in and of their own right.

[Tiki Snakes]

Evil 'cloistered' cleric, perhaps? (Cleric varient, loses a lot of the smashy, armoured stuff in exchange for, er, something else.)
I'd second Warlock for the 'duracell bunny' thing of never running out of stuff to do, plus some fun all-day-buffs.

There's plenty of ways to go about it, might be worth simply shopping around.

[Ixil]

This all began because I'm playing at me moment a cleric that's going for Master of Shrouds... And I like the evil caster type, but aside from the undead I'll be able to summon from the MoS prestige class, the Summon Undead spells and the Create Undead and Animate Dead... I think it'll be really boring to manage in-game (although I like the idea of commanding an army of darkness...), and I was thinking how to be a mean MoFo without any summons...

[Optimystik]

As you can see, I said no wizard

I saw what you wrote, I was just asking why.

(sorcerer I wouldn´t mind if someone could make a build with him that wouldn´t suck)

A necromancer-type sorcerer is cake, just take a bunch of negative energy and debuff spells.

You can also try the Death Master class from Dragon Compendium.

... And clerics, I just don't want the typical Divine huber-buffs that overpowers everyone in melee... If someone can come up with a cleric that won't go into melee (in fact, I'm ok with even not using armor...) that would be great...

Give Cloistered Cleric a look for a less martially-focused cleric.

[Ixil]

I saw what you wrote, I was just asking why.



A necromancer-type sorcerer is cake, just take a bunch of negative energy and debuff spells.

You can also try the Death Master class from Dragon Compendium.



Give Cloistered Cleric a look for a less martially-focused cleric.

Thanks man, I'll give them a look!

[Ixil]

Thanks man, I'll give them a look!

Ok, checked them... The Cloistered Cleric might be sweet if the extra spells didn't go so out of the necro-feeling... And the Death Master... My DM doesn't let us play stuff from Dragon Magazine...

But thanks anyway...

[Seffbasilisk]

Think about Avascular Mass as a spell.

[Boci]

Lord of Uttercold blaster?

[Optimystik]

Ok, checked them... The Cloistered Cleric might be sweet if the extra spells didn't go so out of the necro-feeling...

Do you have Complete Mage? Get the Divine Magician ACF with your Cloistered Cleric, and trade in the free Knowledge domain for a bunch of necromancy spells. You'll still have two domains free to grab Evil and Undeath or whatever fits your concept. That way you can be a cleric with, say, Enervation, or Shivering Touch.

And if I may ask... why are you quoting yourself?

[Ixil]

Think about Avascular Mass as a spell.

Love that spell, just love it...

As for the Lord of the Uttercold, since I don't plan on using undead, is it worth it?

[Ixil]

Do you have Complete Mage? Get the Divine Magician ACF with your Cloistered Cleric, and trade in the free Knowledge domain for a bunch of necromancy spells. You'll still have two domains free to grab Evil and Undeath or whatever fits your concept. That way you can be a cleric with, say, Enervation, or Shivering Touch.

And if I may ask... why are you quoting yourself?

Ok, Divine Magician, I like that idea!

As for quoting myself... I think it's just me being tired from work, and at the time thinking it would have been a good idea...

[Ixil]

Would a Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be any good? That way, I could get access to the the cool arcane necromantic spells...

[Optimystik]

Would a Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be any good? That way, I could get access to the the cool arcane necromantic spells...

You don't need Mystic Theurge. There aren't that many good arcane necromancy spells;the few that exist, you can get through Divine Magician and your domains, without losing caster levels. Then you can go into Contemplative at later levels, getting two more domains, full casting, and becoming an Outsider at the capstone.

[Ixil]

You don't need Mystic Theurge. There aren't that many good arcane necromancy spells;the few that exist, you can get through Divine Magician and your domains, without losing caster levels. Then you can go into Contemplative at later levels, getting two more domains, full casting, and becoming an Outsider at the capstone.

Although I like Divine Magician, my DM won't let me use Cloistered Cleric... Then I thought to use Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge, so I could use Divine Metamagic (extra Charisma for the Sorcerer = extra Rebuke Undead for Divine Metamagic...)

I checked the Domains that would grant necro-spells... Found Death, Undeath and Deathbound... Liked the spells in Deathbound better, but the power is not what I'm looking for... D**nit, I'm trying to make a stupid complicated build...

[Ryumaru]

If you don't want a caster, there is the Thief of Life in Eberron (I forget which book - Faiths of Eberron?); it's mostly a Rogue, but with abilities like stealing peoples life-force and parts of their soul when you sneak attack them, immunity to various things like negative levels and such. Sounds kind of necromancer-y.

Maybe the Boneknight? It's a caster, which gives nearly full Cleric levels (9/10), gives you huge chunky armour, soulstealing abilities if I remember, and pick up some of the domains like Death (Wail of the Banshee, Inflict spells). Just don't prepare or use any undead creating spells. Tada.

[Lysander]

I recommend Warlock. As said above it's not technically a necromancer, but if you're not making undead necromancy basically becomes about debuffs, something warlocks do very well with their eldritch blast altering invocations. If you want to be a cackling flying villain raining death on your enemies it's the way to go.

[Cyclocone]

I checked the Domains that would grant necro-spells... Found Death, Undeath and Deathbound... Liked the spells in Deathbound better, but the power is not what I'm looking for... D**nit, I'm trying to make a stupid complicated build...

Deathbound is still awesome, just 'cause of Avascular Mass.

That being said, you missed:

Decay. Gets you Enervation and Ray of Enfeeblement.

Suffering. Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion are lurking here.

Hunger. Good ol' Enervation again, and then... a lot of Ghoul-themed stuff; so probably not what you're looking for.

[Ixil]

Deathbound is still awesome, just 'cause of Avascular Mass.

That being said, you missed:

Decay. Gets you Enervation and Ray of Enfeeblement.

Suffering. Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion are lurking here.

Hunger. Good ol' Enervation again, and then... a lot of Ghoul-themed stuff; so probably not what you're looking for.

Suffering sounds sweet... As for Decay, I like it also, cool granted power (goes with the theme), just have to convince the DM to let me use a Eberron domain in Forgotten realms...

[Optimystik]

Suffering sounds sweet... As for Decay, I like it also, cool granted power (goes with the theme), just have to convince the DM to let me use a Eberron domain in Forgotten realms...

If he nixes your domains as well as cloistered cleric, then it just means he doesn't want you to play your concept and is trying to prevent you in a very passive-aggressive way.

[Lycanthromancer]

Evil incarnates (from Magic of Incarnum) get access to necrocarnum, which has necromancy effects.

[Ixil]

Going for something different (feel free to crucify me )... Warlock4/Spirit Shaman1/Ur-Priest10/Hellfire Warlock3/something...

[taltamir]

just make a cleric and DON'T go into melee with him...
don't DMM, don't melee, don't be an uberbuffer...
focus on save or die and non undead based "necromancy"... it is entirely doable.
and as some said, get the few good arcane necromancy spells via your domains.

[AbyssKnight]

An interesting trick I saw (maybe here, maybe WotC forums) is to take Black Lore of Moil and the Fell metamagic feats from Librus Mortis, especially Fell Drain and Fell Weaken.

The Fell feats can only be added to spells that do damage.
Black Lore of Moil lets any Necromacy spell do damage.

Black Lore is +0 metamagic with a gp cost (25 gp, enough for 1d6 damage is all you need)
Fell Drain (+2) adds negative levels, Fell Weaken (+1) adds a -4 Str penalty.

Good for a blasting/debuff Necromancer

[Mushroom Ninja]

Sorcerer 4/Binder 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Anima Mage 5 is pretty cool. Personally I prefer wizard to sorcerer in this build, but you still get 8th level spells with sorcerer.

(Note, I'm AFB right now. This build only works if Binder gets Knowledge (Planes) and Knowledge (arcana). If it doesn't, you'd have to use wizard instead of sorc.)

EDIT: If Binder doesn't get the right knowledge skills and you're a human, you could go [Sorc3/Binder1/(Bard or Factotum)1/Mystic Theurge8/Anima Mage5], picking up 2nd level spells through Sanctum Spell