Flight [3.5]

[Heliomance]

I realise that flying is far from the most broken thing a wizard can do, but in most fantasy literature it's not at all common. Mostly you find that a wizard that can lift himself into the air by the raw power of his magic is a very powerful wizard indeed. To try and recapture that feel, I propose increasing the level of levitate, fly, air walk, and overland flight by 3-4 levels. What would this do to the game?

[Eldariel]

Well:
1) Flying races (Dragonborn, Raptoran, Half-Fey, etc.) would become far more powerful and would probably require some tweaking (at least the LA +0 ones).
2) Flying mounts would become far more common; then again, they're as vulnerable as ever to...everything so that's not that big.
3) Martial types would have to seek another way of confronting creatures with natural flight as this would presumably make all items granting flight more expensive too.

Other than that, not much. Frankly, it might not be a horrible change overall, though you'd have to adjust few other things too to make it comprehensive (Phantom Steed might want some increases in the levels it gains the abilities on too, Warlock probably shouldn't have flight at will from ~6, etc.).

[Splendor]

Casters would still use Alter Self to become a Avarial and use their 50' fly movement and alter self's 10 min/lv duration.

[Boci]

Casters would still use Alter Self to become a Avarial and use their 50' fly movement and alter self's 10 min/lv duration.

Not if the DM disagrees.

[Runestar]

Personally, I don't mind if flight is removed from the game altogether, since I never did manage to grasp the rules governing flying or 3D combat in general. I know this makes certain foes such as dragons weaker, but hey, I am not complaining.

[ericgrau]

As long as you do the same for monsters, to monstrous things that might be easier handled with flight and to all other spells related to flight (like phantom steed progression by caster level), it shouldn't matter. Fly, teleport and so on are utility things that only matter when facing challenges that expect them.

[adecoy95]

hehe, just thought i would post a situation that happened in a game i was playing a few weeks ago involving flight.

we were a party of 3, it was me as a dread necromancer, a gold dragon (from dragon magazine), and a dragon shaman (i think), me and the gold dragon could fly, but the dragon shaman could not.

the entire encounter stomped him because he was the only one they could attack.

just thought i would post the possible side effects of PCs flying

[Starbuck_II]

Not if the DM disagrees.

Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

[2xMachina]

Probably the form....

"No, that creature does not exist in my campaign."

[FishAreWet]

Not if the DM disagrees.

But DM fiat exists at all time. Ceteris paribus please. Or else the entire conversation is answered with "DM FIAT!"

[Ryuuk]

When the point of the thread is to make flight harder to get, one would assume that Alter Self would either become a higher level spell, or require a caster level that at least matched Fly's minimum to grant flight. This thread is already about DM fiat.

[FishAreWet]

The thread is about creating house rules. If he's suggesting that it should be raised to a higher level, then that's what he should say.

DM saying no != Houseruling flight abilities to higher levels

[Boci]

Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

That gaining flight for 10 min / caster level is okay power-wise, or even possible, with a 2nd level spell.

But DM fiat exists at all time. Ceteris paribus please. Or else the entire conversation is answered with "DM FIAT!"

Saying "But a broken use of an already powerful spell can cause problems" doesn't really warrant any more details than "Countered by DM fiat".

[Pluto]

Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.
(Except when PC's try to abuse a low-level spell whose effects are perhaps a bit too open-ended.)

[Starbuck_II]

That gaining flight for 10 min / caster level is okay power-wise, or even possible, with a 1st level spell.



Saying "But a broken use of an already powerful spell can cause problems" doesn't really warrant any more details than "Countered by DM fiat".

Wait, when did Alter Self become 1st level?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

[Boci]

Wait, when did Alter Self become 1st level?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

Dunno where I got 1st level from. My mistake, but the point still stands.

[Eclipse]

Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

[Tinydwarfman]

Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

No humanoids. Plenty of amazing stuff you can get if you have the outsider type though. (40ft flight and 15 nat armor. In the same form )

[Ernir]

Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.

Raptorans have a place in one of mine!

[Kurald Galain]

I realise that flying is far from the most broken thing a wizard can do, but in most fantasy literature it's not at all common.

Depends on what fantasy literature we're talking about. While flight via avian shapeshift is probably the most common, there are many instances like Daedalus, Aroree, Peter Pan, yogi discipline, or even Thor. Admittedly most of these aren't "wizards" per the D&D archetype, but using magic to fly is probably at least as common in myth or fantasy as shooting fireballs from one's bare hands.

[Sinfire Titan]

Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.
(Except when PC's try to abuse a low-level spell whose effects are perhaps a bit too open-ended.)

Both Raptorians and Dragonborn have a place in my campaigns. Avariels... Those are the Flying Elves from FR, right? Those don't exist as far as I'm concerned, but that's a two-fold problem.

[Starbuck_II]

Is it because of elven racism (you don't like elves)? Or because they from FR?

[Sinfire Titan]

Is it because of elven racism (you don't like elves)? Or because they from FR?

Both.



@OP: I neglected to mention this, but two classes are capable of obtaining Flight at 1st and 2nd level, and anyone can gain Flight at 1st level if either of those two classes are allowed (Incarnate, Totemist, and Shape Soulmeld).

[Aharon]

Since this thread moved away from the original question a bit, I might as well ask:
How do you handle maneuverability in your games?

I find that most of the time, I just give everybody perfect maneuverability, but require them to travel in ways that don't require square roots and/or sine/cosine to find out how far they can go, because it takes up to much time.

[Devils_Advocate]

I know that I'm contributing to a tangent here, but winged humanoids should have the Monstrous Humanoid type. So should troglodytes and indeed all reptilian humanoids, and mermaids and gnolls for that matter. But they were categorized by the same people who made mage armor Conjuration, so what can you expect?

So that's what a DM might reasonably disagree with: avarial and the like having the Humanoid type.

[Starbuck_II]

I know that I'm contributing to a tangent here, but winged humanoids should have the Monstrous Humanoid type. So should troglodytes and indeed all reptilian humanoids, and mermaids and gnolls for that matter. But they were categorized by the same people who made mage armor Conjuration, so what can you expect?

So that's what a DM might reasonably disagree with: avarial and the like having the Humanoid type.

Wait, Wings make you a monster?

[cfalcon]

As has been pointed out, you should have a plan involved for the other ways of getting flight. Are they ok with you? Polymorph, for instance, or Alter Self.

Overall, I don't really think this would hurt your game much. Consider an Earthbind spell to allow casters to drag flyers low if you anticipate having fliers be too hard to counter.

The game I'm currently running in ups the spell levels for all the invisibility variants by one (maybe not the really high level stuff). I'm liking that houserule a good deal, and will probably incorporate it into my next game. Personally I like the flight concept and I sort of view it as more of, you envelop the target with a bubble of something that can negate their weight and apply forces, with some mental hook- not like, you have to actually fight your own weight mentally. But I came to that conclusion mostly because they are pretty low level.

Also consider making levitate two levels lower than fly, if you are upping them by a bunch.

[Kuma]

Wait, Wings make you a monster?

What makes a human, human?
Philosophy aside, i see no unreasonable problems with making flight spells higher level as long as the DM also realizes that flying monsters will then gain a light difficulty increase as characters without flight will be unable to fight effectively against them. and as to DM fiat...
D&D is DM Fiat enforced by the players will subject to the Rule of Fun. if the Fiat is determined as non-fun, un-fun, or, even worse, anti-fun it will be discarded or the players will find a new DM.
EDIT: Ninja'd

[absolmorph]

Since this thread moved away from the original question a bit, I might as well ask:
How do you handle maneuverability in your games?

I find that most of the time, I just give everybody perfect maneuverability, but require them to travel in ways that don't require square roots and/or sine/cosine to find out how far they can go, because it takes up to much time.

I dunno how many others are like this, but major number crunching for a hobby is something I enjoy.

[RelentlessImp]

Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

Sure. Well, not precisely humanoids, but Aasimar and Tiefling are core (as in, they are in the Monster Manual, which is a core source, and have rules for players), which can use Alter Self to become any kind of outsider of 5HD or less that has flight. Imps, for instance.

Totally core.