Bowie Knives?

[BIRDMANﺕ]

What is a good ruling on bowie knives? Should they simply be masterwork daggers? or something else...?

[Touchy]

Note for everyone, 3.5
We are both players in the same campaign.

[valadil]

I'm pretty sure they're closer to a kukri.

[Dusk Eclipse]

noob question.

What is a bowie knive?

[awa]

its just a dagger nothing more nothing less.
I don't think it should be inherently masterwork

[Book Wyrm]

This is a Bowie Knife.

[Thurbane]

That's not a knife, this is a knife!



Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Xzeno]

That's not a knife, that's is a knife!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Wow, I sure would look silly if that correction was itself incorrect.

[Baerdog7]

I'd rule them as regular daggers.

[dragonfan6490]

I would actually rule them as short swords. On principle of being that BA.

[Thurbane]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Wow, I sure would look silly if that correction was itself incorrect.

...yeah...

[BIRDMANﺕ]

After discussing with my DM we figure it would probably be a Masterwork Kukri. A shame there is no such thing as a D5 otherwise that could have rolled damage the critcal seems acurate since a bowie is a curved blade... so after reading what you guys wrote and speaking with my DM we decided on a masterwork Kukri

[neoseph7]

One of the big moves from AD&D to 3.X was a simplification of the combat system, and that meant a rather finite number of weapon niches. Arms and Equipment guide (3.0) went so far as to state that a Zweihander is a Claymore is a Nodachi is a greatsword. Just one of the sad facts of life.

There is nothing stopping you from calling a bowie knife a dagger or a short sword. For that matter, there is nothinbg stopping you from calling an Antimatter Pistol a composite shortbow, or Vice Verci. You can mess with names all the live long day and still not change the mechanics of the game.

That said, is a bowie knife easier to conceal than other weapons? Can it be thrown? Should anyone and their mother be able to use one? If so, than it should be a dagger.

It shouldn't be a short sword though. Look up the gladius on wikipedia. Now that's a short sword. (Or more accurately is a MW short sword in DnD and is thus a good example of what a short sword should look and feel like).

[Shpadoinkle]

Bowie Knives would be daggers. Larger specimens would be short swords.

Lots of people think daggers are basically double-edged steak knives. They're not. They're closer to large hunting knives.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Because a bowie knife can vary so much in size and shape, it really could be either a dagger or a short sword, a kukri on the other hand is a very specific weapon. A bowie knife is any medium-largish knife with a fixed blade and a clip point. A kukri is a fixed blade of a short-medium length with characteristically forward sweeping blade, with a drop point. Two wildly different animals IMHO.

[lsfreak]

Because a bowie knife can vary so much in size and shape, it really could be either a dagger or a short sword, a kukri on the other hand is a very specific weapon. A bowie knife is any medium-largish knife with a fixed blade and a clip point. A kukri is a fixed blade of a short-medium length with characteristically forward sweeping blade, with a drop point. Two wildly different animals IMHO.

Kukris are also wielded more like hatchets than daggers/swords, including being used for many other things like wood-chopping.

I'd say a dagger or short sword. Or just houserule something in line with similar weapons - say a 1d4/x3 light weapon, that can be used slashing or piercing.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

Well it appears to me that your average bowie knife would be like the difference between a Dagger and a Shortsword.

Thus, a bowie knife would be most like the Bastard Sword of daggers and short swords so to speak. This is a much bigger blade but not too much bigger and definitely looks like it would crit easy.

Maybe 1d4 18-20/x3 or 1d4 18-20/x4 ?

So far by reading this thread a good 50% of people determine it as a Short Sword and another good amount say its just a dagger. at any rate I see the Bowie would be the in between the two (the dagger and the short sword). It is a shame D5's don't exist otherwise I would have just said a bowie was a d5 with the x3 crit and 18-20.

I guess you could throw a bowie if you wanted doesn't seem like something you could throw however and is fairly concealable

Well thats just saying stuff I could see by looking at a bowie knife by first glance...

Upon research a bowie knife is defined as : A Bowie knife is a style of fixed-blade knife first popularized by Colonel James "Jim" Bowie in the early 19th Century. It was first made by James Black, although its common use refers to any large sheath knife with a clip point.

as taken from wikipedia which despite what people say about wiki is probably right. So over all its a knife either way, however it does have 1 feature that stand out: Clip Point.


According to wikipedia: The clip point style allows a quicker, and thus deeper, puncture upon insertion (clip point knives being thinner at the spine).

Okay so it is faster and allows for deeper puncture. Question is how do we interpret that with DND 3.5 game rules? Personally I would translate that as Masterwork and a high crit. Masterwork adds +1 to attack so it would be easier to because of the speed of a bowie knife. The high crit because of its ability to puncture deeper.

All in all what we can tell from the clip point feature of the bowie is that it is a stabbing weapon and is more likely to be a piercing. (or at least how I interpret it from that feature)

Now upon researching a dagger it is also a weapon made primarily for stabbing.

I personally think the idea of a short sword for a bowie knife can be ruled out mostly because short swords (according to what I read/learned online) are slashing weapons and are much bigger than the bowie. There isn't any competition with size on this one... the Short sword IS much bigger. Now, from the way things look in 3.5 it usually is "The bigger the weapon the more damage it does". The bowie is bigger but probably not by too much... it is however much more viscous...

Well there is some speculation I did upon barley through research

[Worira]

A Bowie is actually one of fairly few combat/hunting knives that are reasonably well-balanced for throwing.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

A Bowie is actually one of fairly few combat/hunting knives that are reasonably well-balanced for throwing.

Oh so it can be thrown okay.

[Admiral Squish]

Drow long knife! 1d6, 19-20/x2, 10 foot increment. Can be used as a dagger or a short sword for feats applied specifically to either one. It's from RoE.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

Drow long knife! 1d6, 19-20/x2, 10 foot increment. Can be used as a dagger or a short sword for feats applied specifically to either one. It's from RoE.

I don't know if a drow long knife would cut it :/ its blade would be far different from Elven blades.

we did come up with some sort of idea... although this really should be posted in homebrew:

1d4 masterwork dagger 18-20/x3

my friend also suggested that on a critical it should cause wounding... and I was like "WHAAAAAAAAAAAT!?" and he said "I do believe on a critical Katana's can vorpal... and thats a +5 property" and I was like "dude... op out the ass... but yeah, if a katana can vorpal on a crit im sure asking for wounding on a crit only wouldn't be too big a deal"

of course at the same time I feel... it would be a little over powered like that...

[Touchy]

I posted later that infact, I was unsure and was basing this off of memory.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

I posted later that infact, I was unsure and was basing this off of memory.

It's probably not vorpal is a bit unreasonable mate

so im guessing the wounding should come off and just leave as is. then post in homebrew section for review of a custom item?

[Delcan]

Why the emphasis on masterwork? A masterwork weapon, per RAW, is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon". The Bowie knife was a large utility knife made to be a tool useful for all occasions, including a fight if it came right down to it. A whole lot of them were produced - they weren't created one at a time for unique buyers. Some were, mind you - but those were the masterworks. Everything else was a normal weapon.

Now, that having been said, there is the old story about how James Black (the guy that made Bowie's Bowie) might have tripped over the recipe for Damascus steel somewhere along the line, and you could incorporate something similar into your D&D game. The original-made Bowies might be masterwork, because of some long-lost crafting technique.

Also note that there is nothing inherently special or unique about the Bowie knife's clip point. Per the same wiki article you reference, clip points are common on many knives. (I've got a clip point on a cheapo pocketknife in the kitchen drawer somewhere.) You want to talk about superior stabbing power and depth, pull out one of these.

Balance-wise, a crit range of 18-20/x3 is absurd. There's a reason that all the weapons with a crit range of anything more than 20 are only x2 damage. You can have an improved crit range on a weapon, or you can have improved crit multiplier on a weapon, but you can't have both without magic or feats. If you want something akin to a Bowie knife, I would reflavor a dagger - the Bowie is a slashing/stabbing weapon, smaller than a short sword, and fairly throwable, all of which is covered by "dagger" without having to add anything.

I would go on, but this is really just a repeat post anyway.

[DrGonzo]

It doesn´t only mechanically resemble a dagger, it is a dagger. Just use dagger stats, and call it a bowie knife.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

It doesn´t only mechanically resemble a dagger, it is a dagger. Just use dagger stats, and call it a bowie knife.

It's big frickin' dagger lol

[Fhaolan]

It's big frickin' dagger lol

Bowie knives come in two sizes, actual 'bowie knives' and the 'arkansas toothpick'. The bowies range from 6" to 12" blade length. The toothpicks range from 12" to 25" blade length. The name got confused during the US Civil War. Before that they were considered two different weapons.

The typical short sword in D&D, if I remember correctly, ranges from 20" to 30". I'm not 100% sure of that because my gaming bookshelf is buried behind a pile of show gear right now and I can't reach it.

Therefore, a bowie knife is in fact a dagger. The largest arkensas tootpicks are easily in the short sword range.

[Starbuck_II]

I want a Bowie knife that sings like David Bowie. I mean, it is a Bowie knife.

[awa]

i double agree 18-20 x3 that would make this weapon massively overpowered all the bowie knife is just a dagger, its much more deadly then a knife but so are all daggers if a silleto and poignard and a trench knife are all daggers then a bowie knife witch despite the hype is not that big (compared to other daggers not house knifes)or that specialized then it should just be a dagger. The modifications the bowie knife has make it more deadly then a house hold tool that happens to be sharp but that just puts it on par with combat weapons.

A butcher knife is not a dagger it's a knife

[Lapak]

It's big frickin' dagger lol

Historical daggers WERE big. They weren't kitchen knives, they were heavy-bladed weapons where the blade by itself could be a foot long or more. They were bigger than you think!

Count me in with the 'it is a particular kind of dagger, use dagger stats' crowd. It's well-designed for hunting/skinning/etc. as well as fighting, so if I wanted to differentiate it at all I'd say it doubles as a MW tool for the relevant skills and up the price accordingly.