buying better ability scores

[Geiger Counter]

I think it should be possible to spend exp on increasing you ability scores.
Has anyone ever built a system for this?

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think it should be possible to spend exp on increasing you ability scores. Has anyone ever built a system for this?

They do, its called a wish spell.

[Temotei]

You can also craft tomes.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You can also craft tomes.

Which use wish or miracle.

[Temotei]

Which use wish or miracle.

Albeit the crappy versions of both--increasing ability scores.

When you can cast wish, you don't use it to get +5 Intelligence. You use it to rule the world.

That said, you could probably come up with a system for trading XP for ability score bonuses.

[Lord Vukodlak]

When you can cast wish, you don't use it to get +5 Intelligence. You use it to rule the world.

And a globe marked "the world" pops into existence. Or a god simply uses wish to counter your wish.
Crazy and out there wishes are guaranteed to backfire

[Lix Lorn]

Either that or it works, and it sucks. XD

[Dracomortis]

I think it should be possible to spend exp on increasing you ability scores.
Has anyone ever built a system for this?

World of Darkness?

Sarcasm aside, I think the only balanced way to do this is if you:

1) put a limit on how far you can boost your ability scores by burning experience; even wish can only give you a +5 bonus, at 5,000 XP per casting. Anything much more than that simply makes it too good - why would my wizard bother burning XP to craft scrolls, when I can instead burn it to bump my Intelligence score and get bonus spells per day?

2) keep in mind that XP is a renewable resource. With the way XP is set up in 3.5, you will eventually regain any amount of XP you burn and catch up with the rest of the party. Spending XP to boost an ability score is thus less costly than buying a corresponding item in the long run, since you can't make gold back like you can XP (boosting the ability score also saves you an item slot for more useful/interesting magic items). A character who regularly boosts his ability scores would come out noticeably stronger than an identical character who does not choose to boost.

3) have the XP cost to increase an ability score scale quadratically like the gold cost of magic items (say, something like New Ability Score ^ 2 * 10 XP), and make it so you have to buy each point of an ability score increase individually (you can't go from 10 to 18; you'd have to go from 10 to 11, 11 to 12, and so on until you hit 18). Using that formula, increasing an ability from a 9 to a 10 would thus cost 1,000 XP. Increasing it from 19 to 20 would cost 4,000 XP.

[DracoDei]

#1 isn't necessary a good argument if he doesn't agree with that design decision.

[Dracomortis]

#1 isn't necessary a good argument if he doesn't agree with that design decision.

I can't think of anyway to exclude a limit that would still be balanced, though. With magic items, there is no hard limit, but you're effectively limited in how high you can boost a certain ability score by the cost of the item and how much you can feasibly afford at a given level. Because XP is a completely renewable resource as per #2, you're not nearly as limited by your ability to spend it.

Now, the limit on how high you can boost it doesn't have to be a constant value - it can scale upwards with level, so that you can continue to invest more into it as you level up. But letting a character boost it as much as he wants as long as he has the XP to do so would probably be unbalancing. At the very least, I think there needs to be a stipulation that you can't burn off more XP than the amount required for your current level (so, a level 5 character couldn't drop below 10,000 XP by boosting ability scores, because that would drop him to level 4), if only because you would then have characters in the party spread out over two or more different levels, depending on who boosts and how heavily they choose to do so.

[Hyooz]

And a globe marked "the world" pops into existence. Or a god simply uses wish to counter your wish.
Crazy and out there wishes are guaranteed to backfire

Actually... no they're not. Wish can only backfire if it is outside the boundaries of what Wish can do without fail. One of which is 'Create a magic item.' So you just wish for a magic item that casts 'Dominate Monster' chained with no save and bam, you rule the world, no drawbacks.

[Geiger Counter]

I for one don't see any reason to limit how high you can raise your stats, what's so different between tacking a class level (higher saves, attack and skills) and increasing your abilities (higher saves, attack and skills) It's obviously a better Idea to spend exp on levels than ability score. It's just that some abilities have an ability requirement that you might not ever be able to meet without a system to buy ability scores.

While we are on the topic of pointless limits in power, why don't they properly stat artifacts? Someone had to have made them.

[Dracomortis]

I for one don't see any reason to limit how high you can raise your stats, what's so different between tacking a class level (higher saves, attack and skills) and increasing your abilities (higher saves, attack and skills) It's obviously a better Idea to spend exp on levels than ability score. It's just that some abilities have an ability requirement that you might not ever be able to meet without a system to buy ability scores.

While we are on the topic of pointless limits in power, why don't they properly stat artifacts? Someone had to have made them.

Because when you take an ability boost, you're not actually choosing it instead of anything - you will get all of the XP you spent back over the course of several encounters, at which time you can then take a class level in addition to the ability boost you already took. Over time, a character who boosts his ability scores will becomes noticeably better than one who does not. Now, if you're fine with bumping the power level of the characters, there's nothing wrong with that. Just be aware that it is going to make the characters more powerful in the long run.

[Rainbownaga]

Actually... no they're not. Wish can only backfire if it is outside the boundaries of what Wish can do without fail. One of which is 'Create a magic item.' So you just wish for a magic item that casts 'Dominate Monster' chained with no save and bam, you rule the world, no drawbacks.

Is there such a thing that isn't a custom item? Because if it isn't then the DM decides how much it costs (the pricing guidelines are just guidelines by RAW) and if it's over the limit then you're open game to wish perversion.

[Temotei]

Is there such a thing that isn't a custom item? Because if it isn't then the DM decides how much it costs (the pricing guidelines are just guidelines by RAW) and if it's over the limit then you're open game to wish perversion.

I believe the limit to magic item costs is 25,000 gp.

[Agi Hammerthief]

if you fall far enough behind the other party members you actually gain XP faster than them, due to your lower level.

I'd go for the quadratical increase Dracomortis suggested plus a max of 5 increases (not +5 on each)

seeing how arbitrary the rules for roling/buying the ability scores generally are I don't see the big deal to allow increasing them for XP
or even a shift of single points later on (at least amongst the physical ones)
like
-1 Dex -> +1 Str (pumping iron, costing agility)
-1 Con -> +1 Charisma (going on a diet, loosing body mass/fat for loking fiter/stronger)

[Rainbownaga]

If you want a simple, balanced way of boosting ability scores, just allow the epic feat to be taken pre-epic. a +1 untyped ability boost for a feat isn't exactly overpowered (take it twice for strength and you gain less attack and damage bonuses than if you invested in weapon focus and specialisation, even for a two-hander).

[Zexion]

If you want a simple, balanced way of boosting ability scores, just allow the epic feat to be taken pre-epic. a +1 untyped ability boost for a feat isn't exactly overpowered (take it twice for strength and you gain less attack and damage bonuses than if you invested in weapon focus and specialisation, even for a two-hander).

But for Wizards, that would break the game. Epic feats are epic for a very good reason.

[Yakk]

A 3e solution would be a PrC:
"I'm awesome".
10 levels, each level grants you a +1 to all ability scores, medium BaB and all 3 saves are weak.

[ericgrau]

The thing is as you reach higher and higher levels it gets more and more expensive to get an additional +2 to a stat. There's no way to balance a flat cost as even if it's appropriate now it'll be too cheap in the future at which time you'll continue to enjoy the benefit. I'd use LA instead. A PrC or anything else involving levels works too.

[Geiger Counter]

I think a limitless, but exponentially rising cost system would work best.

[Zexion]

I think a limitless, but exponentially rising cost system would work best.

Sure. How about total bonus to that score squared, times one thousand?

[ericgrau]

Sure. How about total bonus to that score squared, times one thousand?

I think he means after you've already bought that item. Or if you mean allowing a 2nd one as an inherent bonus, that still poses a problem. 2 +2's are cheaper than 1 +4, so you've already made things too cheap. Hence the reason why you need LA or something else that gets more valuable at higher levels; b/c any flat gp cost will be too expensive early on and too cheap later on now matter how little or how much it costs. Changing the price merely changes the point at which it is too cheap or too expensive.