Does this work?

[Geiger Counter]

Can a gnome sorcerer turn an ogre into a skeleton, give it enchanted fullplate+weapon, make it permanently invisible, then cast spells from the safety of it's empty body cavity? Would my gnome turn invisible too, or just look like he's floating?

[Ashtagon]

Can a gnome sorcerer turn an ogre into a skeleton,

Sure, as long as he has the spells for it (some version of animate dead, off the top of my head).

give it enchanted fullplate+weapon, make it permanently invisible,

No. Invisibility can only be made permanent on objects. A skeleton (animated/undead ones, anyway) are monsters, not objects, so the permanency fails.

then cast spells from the safety of it's empty body cavity? Would my gnome turn invisible too, or just look like he's floating?

mu.

Let's pretend you could have some kind of long-lasting invisibility on your ogre skeleton. Personally, I'd rule that any attempt to climb inside would effectively be a grapple, as you'd need to hold on to the ogre's skeletal structure. This has serious consequences on the skeleton's ability to move around.

As a general rule, invisibility spells that affect individual creatures affect worn objects. It affects objects carried at the time of casting, but objects subsequently picked up and held in hand do not become invisible unless/until placed in a pocket of bag. The rules are frustratingly silent on whether invisibility can affect a carried creature. I personally would rule it doesn't, unless that creature is unconscious

[Lord Vukodlak]

He may also mean you make the skeleton permanently invisible BEFORE casting animate dead.

[Ashtagon]

He may also mean you make the skeleton permanently invisible BEFORE casting animate dead.

In this case, I'd rule that the permanency effect is ended when you animate them. The rules are quite clear that creatures cannot have permanent invisibility. From a balance point of view, that's just too good.

A mean DM might rule that the permanent invisibility renders that skeleton into a non-viable target for the animate dead spell.

[Nero24200]

You could theoretically cast form inside, but if you're not invisable and enemies can't see you, it means you can't see them, which will put a heavy damper on what spells you can use.

I'm not sure if the invisability would apply permanately to the ogre, but there would be little point since, permanent or not, it would end once he attacks someone.

[Zeta Kai]

The rules are quite clear that creatures cannot have permanent invisibility.

Not to be contrary, but creatures like the invisible stalker seem to counter your assertion. Could you point out the specific rule(s) that you're citing that specifically bar a permanent invisibility effect being placed on a creature?

[Ashtagon]

Not to be contrary, but creatures like the invisible stalker seem to counter your assertion. Could you point out the specific rule(s) that you're citing that specifically bar a permanent invisibility effect being placed on a creature?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

Yes, certain monsters do have a natural invisibility, such as the one you named. But there is no game-defined way to duplicate that with magic PCs have access to.

[Innis Cabal]

There isn't a rule there saying they can't be invisable permanently. There just is a rule that the spell Invisibility can't be permanencied on living things.

Thats apples and oranges I'm afraid.

[Ashtagon]

Fair enough, you can't make the invisibility spell permanent on a creature.

I'm not personally aware of other ways to create such an effect that are defined within the game. If you are, please, do share your knowledge with the forum.

Short of rule zero, there isn't any way to do it.

[Roderick_BR]

(...) but if you're not invisable and enemies can't see you, it means you can't see them (...)

What? Where did you read this rule?

Anyway, casting invisibility every few hours may work (an ethernal wand will be useful here). About the grapple. If he's just sitting on a special made chair, it would be like riding a creature. He may need to make ride and concentration checks a lot, and the skeleton would need balance checks every once in a while. But would be workable.

[Mulletmanalive]

Item of constant Greater Invisibility:

level 4 x Caster level 7 x 2000gp x 5 for a duration easured in rounds

= 280,000gp

Item of reasserting Invisibility:

level 2 x caster level 3 x 2000gp x 5 for duration in rounds

= 60,000gp

Reasserts itself on Initiative 0 on any round that it's disrupted by you attacking.

Both are permanent effects, just not using the Permanancy spell.

Or you could fit the ogre up with a suitable enchantment that grants it a whopping +30 on Hide...

[Admiral Squish]

Kinda like the giant skeleton from SCS' stories?

I'd rule it as needing a special seat/straps. I don't know if invisibility would work by RAW.

On a different note... Why is this in homebrew? This doesn't need homebrewing, this is just a rules question. It should be in roleplaying games.

[Lapak]

Regardless of the skeleton's invisibility, if I was running this game I'd certainly argue that being inside a metal shell - the full plate armor - might not break line of sight if the armor was invisible, but it would most definitely break line of effect. Just like being in a Cube of Force or similar.

Which would put a damper on much of your spellcasting.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Line of effect probably wouldn't be broken...but the problem is that a skeleton isn't a solid object. Since you're basically surrounded by the ogre skeleton but not enclosed in it, I'd say it's a pretty clear ruling that, even if the skeleton is invisible, you wouldn't be. It's almost exactly like an invisible creature picking up someone: the victim is still visible, even if their mode of transport isn't.

Edit: Missed the armor part. Yeah, that would definitely block line of effect...and I'd also rule that you'd still be visible.

[Arbitrarious]

Make it for your psion friend who has burrowing power. That could be interesting.

[Magnor Criol]

As a DM, I'd rule that the gnome inside is not invisible, no. So it'd just look like a floating gnome. Most creatures wouldn't know about the invisible armored ogre-case, so...I guess that when creatures attacked the gnome, they'd roll against the ogre's armor class without knowing it.

I think there'd be a penalty to the gnome spellcaster, who has to concentrate on spells while trying to stay in the torso. I'd probably adapt the rules for casting spells while grappling someone (grappling, not being grappled) somehow, to reflect the fact that he's trying to hold on. Once the gnome's inside, the skeleton probably wouldn't be particularly adversely affected.

Maybe if the gnome spent more time and money and installed some sort of chair inside the torso, it'd at least lessen the penalty.

Perhaps line of sight would be unblocked, thanks to the invisibility, but line of effect would be blocked. What effect would that have on spells the sorc could cast?

[Ashtagon]

Just a thought... if the "ogre" is invisible, that's going to mean the gnome can't see it either, which will make any skill checks (Concentration? Balance? Tumble?) to cast while trying to stay mounted a whole lot harder.

[Zeta Kai]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm

Yes, certain monsters do have a natural invisibility, such as the one you named. But there is no game-defined way to duplicate that with magic PCs have access to.

I stand corrected. Thank you, Ash.

[Geiger Counter]

I meant make the armor invisible, not the skeleton, Also the chestplate would open like a door and there should probably be slots to poke my hand out to cast some spells. It would probably be a good idea to throw some pillows in there as well.

[Anarril]

In my opinion this should not be too complicated :

Can a gnome sorcerer turn an ogre into a skeleton,

Sure! Animate Dead + 100 gp black onyx

give it enchanted fullplate+weapon,

Sure! Remember that increase in size means increase in price, especially for the armor.

make it permanently invisible,

Sure! Few options:
* Cast invisibility repeatedly (with, possibly, an (eternal) wand).
* Ring of invisibility
* Custom item as statted above

Would my gnome turn invisible too, or just look like he's floating?

No, your gnome would not be invisible. The invisibility spell affects one creature and its carried equipment. Barring special circumstances that excludes other creatures quite clearly. On the other hand, nothing is preventing the gnome from becoming invisible himself through seperate means (see the list above for ideas).

then cast spells from the safety of it's empty body cavity?

Two separate concerns: riding inside the creature and casting spells from it.
Riding the creature
The best way to solve this is using the ride skill. It has already built in difficulty estimates and lots of other rules refer to it. Assuming the gnomes wants this as some sort of permanent mount he could buy a special saddle for a Large creature, prices/rules are in the PHB/srd. Riding without a saddle of some sort is harder but already taken care of in the rules. You could maybe place a penalty on the ride check of -2 or maximum -4 on account of the skeleton being dumber then your average mount. On the other hand I' don't think you should have to roll for 'Control Mount in Battle' as the skeleton can hardly be panicked .
Casting spells from the inside
Spells that require line of effect are the only problem (so are touch spells, but Spectral Hand solves that). Seeing as the skeleton is wielding a fullplate the gnome does not have line of effect to the outside world. Possible solutions:
* don't cast them but let the gnome focus on buffing, out of combat utility, directing undead minions (via Message) or some divination spells (most 'Detect x' spells will penetrate that fullplate).
* Open up part of the skeleton and its armor. This would give the gnome line of sight to the outside world but that goes both ways. What kind of AC/cover the gnome should have could be debatable but assuming you don't remove the entire ribcage at least cover (+4 AC) and the bonuses that the skeleton get to its touch AC seem like a good estimate. Improved Cover could also be appropriate.

All in all this is a pretty nice defensive option for your average necromancer which should be kept in consideration when balancing against the rest of the party. It does have some disadvantages in the area's of stealth, small spaces and direct item manipulation though so don't worry to much about it .

[Godskook]

If you're making this undead through a spell, the feat invisible spell might do the trick for you on the invisible part.

[Lysander]

I would count the animated ogre skeleton as heavy armor with very high arcane spell failure chance, that also requires continuous ride checks with a -5 penalty for a creature not suited to be a mount, plus continuous concentration checks when casting.

[Nero24200]

What? Where did you read this rule?

It's common sense. If you're actually inside an invisable creature, theres only two possibilities.

1. The invisability only makes the outside of the ogre invisable (such as by altering light reflected off of the ogre, in a similer fashion to Predator camoflauge), in which case being inside would mean blocked line of sight, since the ogre's inners will still be visable from those angles.

2. The ogre as a whole is invisable and transparent. Since the gnome would be an actual creature instead of an unattended object, the gnome would still be visable.

Personally, I think 1 is the most likely, since the spell invisability doesn't obscure you from sight completly (since a high enough spot check will still allow you to see an invisable creature).

[ericgrau]

Let's say you somehow got your permanent invisibility shenanigans to fly past the DM. No the gnome would not be invisible, should the skeleton ever attack he breaks the spell and there is no rule saying it comes back unlike other permanent spells (you wanna live by RAW you gotta die by RAW), and finally it may be dispelled like any permanent spell. Again you can't recast it on the same skeleton. You need another 100 gp gem for another animate dead.

[Geiger Counter]

I don't know why people keep talking about the skeleton being invisible I already clarified I'm making it's armor invisible. And no, as the armor wouldn't restrict your movement, this wouldn't cause asf.

[ericgrau]

Then you can't see the armor but you can see the skeleton and the gnome. An invisible creature might make his possessions invisible but not vis versa.