Psion Save-Game Trick

[Crow]

Can anyone point me to this little gem? Seems to have been lost in one of the dozen evolutions of the WotC message boards.

Direct post here, or a working link would be much appreciated.

[Optimystik]

I have it saved somewhere. The best of Char-Op? 1 sec.

EDIT:Found it. To summarize, it works by abusing Time Hop to send your psicrystal days forward in time, and Forced Dream, which will return him back in time to the moment you cast Time Hop. Doing so will undo whatever caused your party to wipe, because the psicrystal's Dream began before you Time Hopped it. (Presumably while you were all alive and kicking.)

There's a couple of other things you'll need to make it work, below:

Save Game Mechanic
Tleilaxu_Ghola

Summary:
With this trick one is able to create "save" game points, with a minimal cost of 15 XP. The point allows one to adventure for a day and then reload the save game point if something went awry.

Ingredients:
Forced Dream (Magic of Eberron)
Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionic)
Time Hop
Psionic Contingency
A psi-crystal
Status
Imbue Spell-like Ability
Sending Stones (Magic Item) (Complete Arcane)

Forced Dream: Psion/Wilder 3
[paraphrased]Any time during the rounds/level duration (or minutes per level with 4 pp augment), you can spend a swift action to restart your turn. "When this effect is used, everyone and everything is reset to the state they were at when the subject's turn began. Any spells or abilities used are available again, any damage dealt is healed , any effects incurred are negated, any objects or creatures moved are reset to their original position, and so on. The only exception to this is that any power points spent to manifest forced dream are not recovered..." The power ends when the swift action to do this is expended or when the duration expired.

The Trick
Manifest psionic contingency on your psi-crystal placing a contingent ancipatory strike on him contingent on the event: returns to the normal timestream from a time hop.
Share metamorphosis with your psi-crystal. Transform him into something that isn't immune to mind-affecting compulsions. Heck you could transform him into an object of any size if you wish. Have the party cleric use imbue spell-like ability on the psi-crsytal so that it can use the spell status. Mix with affinity field if you wish the psi-crystal to have knowledge of all party members' condition.

The Psi-crystal casts status on you or whatever party member you choose. This person's condition will determine whether or not the save-game will be reloaded, so choose carefully.

Manifest forced dream on your psicrystal at some time before you fear harm will befall you. Ready a std action to manifest time hop mass contingent when the psi-crystal moves (tell him to do so), advancing him hours / level ahead in time. With enough ML you can advance your psi-crystal nearly a day. Adventure on your merry way, whilst your psi-crystal is outside the time stream.

If your party succumbs to a TPK, your psi-crystal will still be alive and kicking the next day. No time will pass for him and when he comes out of the time hop the contingency will grant him sufficient actions to check the status of the party (provided they are on the same plane as the psi-crystal). The psi-crystal may also use a sending stone to ask whether his master would like to reload or not. If the party member is under a certain condition or if the master tells the crystal to, the save game is reloaded as the psi-crystal spends a swift action to return to the beginning of his turn (which began with you manifesting time hop on him right before he started moving). You may now retry whatever you failed to accomplish. There is a 5% error in the sending transmition if you are not on the same plane as the psi-crystal and the status effect will not work across planes.
???
Profit.

[Crow]

Yep, that's it! Thank you!

[KillianHawkeye]

That's ridiculous!!

[Starbuck_II]

You mean rediculously awesome.

[Sinfire Titan]

That's ridiculous!!

Meh, beats TPKs.

[Swordgleam]

It appears to just reset powers and actions and whatnot, not memories. Could be an interesting subplot if the PCs use this and the entire plane has a groundhog day. Especially if someone figures out they caused it.

[Starbuck_II]

It appears to just reset powers and actions and whatnot, not memories. Could be an interesting subplot if the PCs use this and the entire plane has a groundhog day. Especially if someone figures out they caused it.

But the Psicrystal still remembers so it can tell its master. Remember it was outside timestream: it never died.

[JaxGaret]

AKA "The DM will hate you for abusing this."

[Mushroom Ninja]

AKA "The DM will hate you for abusing this."

Just hope the DM doesn't start using it too...

[Jack_Simth]

Just hope the DM doesn't start using it too...

Especially seeing as how NPC's don't have an XP limit, in general....

[Swordgleam]

But the Psicrystal still remembers so it can tell its master. Remember it was outside timestream: it never died.

No, I'm saying memories don't reset, at least according to my reading of the wording of the spell. So the entire world just experienced a day that was unhappened.

[Touchy]

No, I'm saying memories don't reset, at least according to my reading of the wording of the spell. So the entire world just experienced a day that was unhappened.

Mass chaos ensues.

[magic9mushroom]

Just hope the DM doesn't start using it too...

The DM can't use it without getting into extreme trouble with metagaming. Because the players will use the knowledge they shouldn't have had from the first time round.

Using it as a player is similar, but doesn't add any more trouble to the DM than the DM has already.

[Jack_Simth]

The DM can't use it without getting into extreme trouble with metagaming. Because the players will use the knowledge they shouldn't have had from the first time round.

Using it as a player is similar, but doesn't add any more trouble to the DM than the DM has already.

Dude, it's a 15+ hour save costing 15 xp. The BBEG Psion can do it as a matter of routine. The players kill the BBEG. The day unhappens. The players kill the BBEG. The day unhappens. The players kill the BBEG. The day unhappens. The BBEG doesn't NEED to vary strategy one iota for it to result in the players agreeing that it breaks the game. The BBEG just needs to utilize it. Then you book a treaty with the players and everyone goes home happy with the Save Game trick being banned by mutual consent.

Alternately, there's a much simpler solution: The party is dead when the psicrystal comes out of the time hop. Always. Thus, following orders, the Psicrystal always resets. Waste 15 xp and however many power points.

[magic9mushroom]

Alternately, there's a much simpler solution: The party is dead when the psicrystal comes out of the time hop. Always. Thus, following orders, the Psicrystal always resets. Waste 15 xp and however many power points.

What? Do you mean "if a player uses it, chuck a god at them so they're dead and their save will trigger, only allow them to progress if no saves have been made"?

Because that's kinda dodgy.

[Optimystik]

There are several ways to break the loop:

- Delay the Psicrystal until its Dream wears off; keep it from 'waking.' Then the dead stay dead. (Note - due to Time Hop, this can take awhile - the clock only starts ticking when the crystal comes back to the time stream.)

- Interrupt/Block its "Status" check on the party's health; though what this will do depends on its contingency.

- Keep at least the one party member the psicrystal is supposed to check alive until the Dream fades. However, if this person is the manifester or someone similarly resourceful, you may have additional problems.

None is foolproof, and only one actually allows you to TPK the party, so I guess the trick is doing its job.

[magic9mushroom]

There are several ways to break the loop:

- Delay the Psicrystal until its Dream wears off; keep it from 'waking.' Then the dead stay dead. (Note - due to Time Hop, this can take awhile - the clock only starts ticking when the crystal comes back to the time stream.)

- Interrupt/Block its "Status" check on the party's health; though what this will do depends on its contingency.

- Keep at least the one party member the psicrystal is supposed to check alive until the Dream fades. However, if this person is the manifester or someone similarly resourceful, you may have additional problems.

None is foolproof, and only one actually allows you to TPK the party, so I guess the trick is doing its job.

Forced Dream has logic problems with it anyway, and really should be banned for the same reason as Teleport Through Time - not necessarily broken, but really screws with the game.

If someone's using it anyway, and you want to make it not happen, have the manifester Mind Raped and stick a Maw of Chaos over where the psicrystal will come out.

[Zeta Kai]

The DM can't use it without getting into extreme trouble with metagaming. Because the players will use the knowledge they shouldn't have had from the first time round.

And so will everybody else, including any antagonists the party faced. As always, the ball is firmly in the DM's court. But like an arcanist's disjunction, I think that many tables will have a gentleman's agreement to avoid this tactic, lest the game devolve into Xanatos Gambit's of Nuh-uh & Yeah-huh.

[magic9mushroom]

And so will everybody else, including any antagonists the party faced. As always, the ball is firmly in the DM's court. But like an arcanist's disjunction, I think that many tables will have a gentleman's agreement to avoid this tactic, lest the game devolve into Xanatos Gambit's of Nuh-uh & Yeah-huh.

But the villains can metagame anyway due to the DM's omniscience. The players can't.

[Alcopop]

I think this has gotta be my favorite dnd exploit out there. I know it's wrong but I think i have to try this one day just to see the expression on my gms face.

[magic9mushroom]

I think this has gotta be my favorite dnd exploit out there. I know it's wrong but I think i have to try this one day just to see the expression on my gms face.

His expression will likely be annoyance, since you can't do it on-the-spot, and the DM isn't likely to let you hide the set-up from him. So he bans it before you get to use it, and you don't get the defense of "oh, well, if it doesn't work, then we'll have to play over from where I assumed it would".

[taltamir]

forced dream is a level 3 spell that rewinds time for the entirety of reality...

Even if you do not use this elaborate setup, you still get every single being in existence recalling random rewinds that last rounds/CL or minutes/CL whenever one of those is cast, anywhere.
This is a terribly thought out power.
Not to mention that once you start messing with time the whole thing breaks apart... humans think linearly and we do not handle time loops very well... the result is typically plot holes.
Although you can avoid the worst of it by studying time travel theories and choosing a model for your story that maintains consistency, its still fairly easy to break.
example: in harry potter even if you ignore paradoxes... they give a time machine to over achieving 11 year old girls so they can take more classes in a day (aging faster then their peers? thats actually cheating) while not using it for combat, say, with their little magical hitler who is so frightening they will not even speak his name. heck, it could single handedly solve every problem in the story ever... bring dumbledoor back to life, ensure victory over death eaters, etc etc...
(please forgive me for mentioning harry potter in a serious discussion)

anyways, this is an awesome trick... as far as I am concerned, the psion that discovered it has ascended and is now one of the gods of the pun pun pantheon... of course they closed that loophole after his ascension and forced dream no longer exists (as written... maybe a small area of effect that only rewinds a specific very small AREA).

[Alcopop]

His expression will likely be annoyance, since you can't do it on-the-spot, and the DM isn't likely to let you hide the set-up from him. So he bans it before you get to use it, and you don't get the defense of "oh, well, if it doesn't work, then we'll have to play over from where I assumed it would".

Mmm, delicious negative assumptions.

Actually my GM is a real easy going guy, so he'll probably have a good laugh before asking me to switch out, if he does, he might embrace the idea of a quick save and just role with it.

[taltamir]

Mmm, delicious negative assumptions.

Actually my GM is a real easy going guy, so he'll probably have a good laugh before asking me to switch out, if he does, he might embrace the idea of a quick save and just role with it.

it is doable in a non serious non deadly adventure... like the many dnd comics that break the fourth wall and lampshade things about the system, there are similar stories about CRPGs that do the same... and some do include save points... you can't have real drama that way but its workable in a "light" enough game.

[Swordgleam]

you can't have real drama that way but its workable in a "light" enough game.

That's a challenge! I'm now going to try and think up a campaign that could both have savepoints and drama.

[taltamir]

That's a challenge! I'm now going to try and think up a campaign that could both have savepoints and drama.

ok, now I am impressed :P... let me know how it goes. I would love to watch or even participate if it is PBP. (I should have known it would have been taken as a challange :P)

[Swordgleam]

ok, now I am impressed :P... let me know how it goes. I would love to watch or even participate if it is PBP. (I should have known it would have been taken as a challange :P)

The best I have right now is to cheat and have savepoints be part of resource management. So you reset whenever you want, but every time you do, evil is released into the world. I'm going to try and come up with something where the savepoints themselves are totally harmless.

[taltamir]

that is one way to work it.. good idea.

I had some more:
1. find a mechanical way for there to be danger even with save points...
2. trauma of recalling your death / just multiple time periods that get rewound causes insanity and other issues. for everyone, in the world, at once :P.

there are probably more/better ways we can come up with given the time.

I knew someone was going to epic-necro-bump this after seeing a link to it in Godskook's Thread.

huh? the first post in this thread was made yesterday.

[Reluctance]

The best I have right now is to cheat and have savepoints be part of resource management. So you reset whenever you want, but every time you do, evil is released into the world. I'm going to try and come up with something where the savepoints themselves are totally harmless.

Strong or weak save point theory? As in, can the party instantly reset everything, or is it more of a guaranteed respawn?

Because the latter is easy. Let the characters enjoy their eternal reward in Ysgard. Rivalries still give the players something to strive to beat, and if some big bad sets up shop and tries to undermine the plane, you've got your campaign villain right there.