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Thread: Megalodon

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    Default Megalodon

    "Don't go into the water..."

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    By Kerembeyit

    Colossal Animal (Aquatic, Dire)
    Hit Dice: 24d8+168 (360 hp)
    Initiative: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
    Speed: 100 ft. (20 squares)
    Armor Class: 26 (-8 size, +4 Dex, +20 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 22
    Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+54
    Attack: Bite +40 melee (6d8+22)
    Full Attack: Bite +40 melee (6d8+22)
    Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
    Special Attacks: Engulfing maw, frenzy, frightful presence, improved grab, rend
    Special Qualities: Blindsense, hyper-carnivore, keen scent, low-light vision
    Saves: Fort +21, Ref +18, Will +18
    Abilities: Str 38, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7
    Skills: Listen +20, Spot +20, Swim +25
    Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Swimby Attack, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Swimby Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
    Environment: Aquatic
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: 14
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always neutral
    Advancement: 25 - 72 HD (Colossal+)
    Level Adjustment: ó

    The primeval oceans were once reeking charnel houses; the exquisiteness of terror was the natural state of all. This was the dominion of the megalodon, Nature's ultimate predator; these were the killing fields of all others.

    The megalodon's monstrous visage and powerful form hides a cold, calculating intellect, the instincts of a hunter, the strategy of a tactician; an intelligence unbowed by the coldness of the water, and undaunted by its primal savagery. Its maw hides eight rows of viciously serrated teeth, the graveyard of countless.

    A full 67 feet in length, its sleek length is so finely designed and crafted that it propels itself through the oceans with an offensive ease. Its jaws alone could hide 16 fully grown adults.

    It is a tireless, some would disparagingly say soulless, predator, but reality is much more complex.

    Combat

    Blindsense (Ex): A megalodon can locate creatures underwater within a 100-foot radius. This ability works only when the shark is underwater.

    Engulfing Maw (Ex): A megalodon can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to one size smaller by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage plus 1d8+4 points of acid damage per round from the shark's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a light slashing or piercing weapon by dealing 35 points of damage to the shark's digestive tract (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

    A megalodon's gullet can hold 2 Gargantuan, 8 Huge or Large, 32 Medium or Small, 128 Small, 512 Diminutive, or 896 Fine or smaller opponents.

    A megalodon's crushing bite exerts such tremendous pressure and power that it bites with the force of adamantine. It benefits from a free Improved Natural Attack (bite) feat and also ignores the hardness of objects, always penetrating their touch armour class. Its crushing bite provides a further +1 natural bonus on attack rolls and damage.

    Frenzy (Ex): Any time the meglodon scents blood in the water, it flies into an uncontrollable frenzy. In its frenzy, the megalodon temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but it takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the megalodon's hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the frenzy when its Constitution score drops back to normal. The frenzy lasts for 12 rounds. The megalodon cannot prematurely or voluntarily end its frenzy, though the shark is not fatigued at the end of its frenzy.

    Frightful Presence (Ex): A megalodon can unsettle prey (anything that is not itself) with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the shark attacks, charges or swims near. Creatures within a radius of 60 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the shark. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will DC 20 save remains immune to the shark's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds.

    Hyper-carnivore (Ex): The meglodon exists as the peak of predatory evolution. It is Nature's ultimate killing machine. Its monstrous form hides tremendous power, speed and endurance. Its intellect is unrivalled in one so animalistic and singularly focused.
    The megalodon benefits from the following.
    It receives maximum hit points for its Hit Dice.
    It receives a base attack bonus equal to its Hit Dice.
    Its primary movement mode increases by 20 feet.
    It benefits from an additional +4 to Natural Armor.
    Its Intelligence increases to 8 while retaining its Animal type.

    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a megalodon must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to engulf the foe in its maw in the following round.

    Keen Scent (Ex): A megalodon can notice creatures by scent in a 360-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to ten miles.

    Rend (Ex): A megalodon that hits with the full force of bite with its vicious rows of serrated teeth, hooks onto the opponent's body and shakes violently, both gorging itself and disgorging chunks of flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 4d6+21 points of damage.

    Skills: A megalodon has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
    Last edited by Amiel; 2010-03-28 at 04:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Megalodon

    You do have interesting things there but there is no reason for enveloping maw to be any different then swallow hole. I think you should rename the Rend attack, constrict and have it apply while its grappling with its mouth.

    I will also point out in case you are unaware there is already a megaladon in I think the MM3, but that is no reason you can't make your own megashark.

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    Collosal animals aren't that threatening IMO.
    A colossal shark is as dangerous to a human as a lion is to an ant.

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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    You do have interesting things there but there is no reason for enveloping maw to be any different then swallow hole.
    The engulfing maw also has the crushing bite property; an attempt to simulate its real-world bite force; "the largest specimens were capable of exerting a bite force of around 182,000 newtons (N)[21] or 41,000 pound-force; over 28 times greater than that of Dunkleosteus at 6.3 kN (1,400 lbf), over 10 times greater than that of great white shark at 18 kN (4,100 lbf), over 5 times greater than that of T. rex at 31 kN (7,000 lbf), and also greater than that of Predator X at 150 kN (33,000 lbf)."

    I think you should rename the Rend attack, constrict and have it apply while its grappling with its mouth.
    How's that?
    The megalodon isn't performing a constriction, it's tearing flesh and shearing bone. Renaming it to constrict will introduce a completely new and different meaning.

    I will also point out in case you are unaware there is already a megaladon in I think the MM3, but that is no reason you can't make your own megashark.
    I usually only use the MM; sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiger Counter View Post
    Collosal animals aren't that threatening IMO.
    A colossal shark is as dangerous to a human as a lion is to an ant.
    Yeah, that's probably what they want you to think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    The megalodon isn't performing a constriction, it's tearing flesh and shearing bone. Renaming it to constrict will introduce a completely new and different meaning.
    A typical shark feeding, especially say with A Great White is very much like a constrict attack. Holding its prey in its mouth refusing to let go, very much like a grapple attack. Mechanically its best described using constrict and not red,

    A rend attack is supposed to be from being hit by TWO natural attacks and not one. You might as well just up the bite attack because as it stands the rend will happen every time the bite hits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Geiger Counter View Post
    Collosal animals aren't that threatening IMO. A colossal shark is as dangerous to a human as a lion is to an ant.
    Except when the shark see's your boat as food, and the size comparison is more like a mouse to a lion.

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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    A typical shark feeding, especially say with A Great White is very much like a constrict attack. Holding its prey in its mouth refusing to let go, very much like a grapple attack. Mechanically its best described using constrict and not red,
    Which is rather unfortunate, as the meanings behind constrict and rend differ.
    Also, while constrict is a grapple attack, it is also described as a crushing effect attack, dealing bludgeoning damage; which isn't the case for typical shark feedings, they're all about bloody chunks, torn flesh, vital arteries fleeing the scene.

    A rend attack is supposed to be from being hit by TWO natural attacks and not one. You might as well just up the bite attack because as it stands the rend will happen every time the bite hits.
    Actually, it doesn't have to be; as the following is an example of a single natural attack terminating as a rend "A gray render that wins a grapple check after a successful bite attack establishes a hold, latching onto the opponentís body and tearing the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2d6+9 points of damage."

    Well, the rend does deal automatic damage; but doesn't necessarily happen every time the megalodon bites, only when the shark chooses to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    Well, the rend does deal automatic damage; but doesn't necessarily happen every time the megalodon bites.
    Yes it does nothing in the description says nothing about any grapple being required by your description it sounds like it simply has to bite.

    The Gray Render essentially uses its rend as a constrict attack, I advice you do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Yes it does nothing in the description says nothing about any grapple being required by your description it sounds like it simply has to bite.
    It's really up to the DM; it can be resolved as part of the bite attack, or it can be resolved as an additional attack and damage variable.

    The Gray Render essentially uses its rend as a constrict attack, I advice you do the same.
    Why? It's not constricting, it's not dealing bludgeoning damage, it is forcefully tearing flesh. It probably isn't even attempting a grapple.
    Or do you mean introducing a grapple check?
    It doesn't necessarily have to be a grapple check though, it just needs to hit the AC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    It's really up to the DM; it can be resolved as part of the bite attack, or it can be resolved as an additional attack and damage variable. .
    That's not how you describe it, If a troll hits with two claws you don't roll a third attack for the rend it just happens. How you describe the ability on the monster, if it bites it rends automatically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    Why? It's not constricting, it's not dealing bludgeoning damage, it is forcefully tearing flesh. It probably isn't even attempting a grapple.
    Or do you mean introducing a grapple check?
    It doesn't necessarily have to be a grapple check though, it just needs to hit the AC.
    For a Gray Render to REND, it must win a grapple check after a bite attack.
    Mechanically its functioning just like construct but dealing piercing and slashing damage not simply bludgeoning it doesn't automatically rend every time it bites like your shark does.
    Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2010-03-26 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    That's not how you describe it, If a troll hits with two claws you don't roll a third attack for the rend it just happens. How you describe the ability on the monster, if it bites it rends automatically.
    Except for the troll, the damage dealt by its claws is separate to the damage from its rend; if the two are really one attack, the numbers would have been merged within the one entry. This is not the case.
    For the shark to rend, it also should be separate to its bite; it is not necessarily rending every time it bites; the rending should be what happens when it violently shakes its prey with its mouth, the damage dealt by its bite should be the result of each time it bites, without the violent shaking action. It is also unfortunate that the shark does not have any other limbs to rend with, this is probably more so a failing of the mechanics.

    For a Gray Render to REND, it must win a grapple check after a bite attack.
    Mechanically its functioning just like construct but dealing piercing and slashing damage not simply bludgeoning it doesn't automatically rend every time it bites like your shark does.
    It does not explicitly say; it can be concluded that the grey render is rending using its bite, after having won the grapple check with its mouth.
    Or mechanically it could be a rend attack, dealing piercing and slashing damage rather than a constrict (as it is not explicitly stated).

    Nor does the troll automatically rend every time its two claws hit.
    Last edited by Amiel; 2010-03-26 at 10:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    Except for the troll, the damage dealt by its claws is separate to the damage from its rend; if the two are really one attack, the numbers would have been merged within the one entry. This is not the case.
    For the shark to rend, it also should be separate to its bite; it is not necessarily rending every time it bites.
    Nor does the troll automatically rend every time its two claws hit.
    YES, yes it does
    Quote Originally Posted by Troll
    Rend (Ex)
    If a troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponentís body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d6+9 points of damage.
    A troll ALWAYS rends when it hits with both claw attacks. Its automatic.
    Where do you get that it not automatic, it even says its automatic. No extra rolls, no grapple checks hit with BOTH claws and you get the rend.
    The two claws are separate attacks, but the rend is automatic if both of those separate attacks hit.

    The rend you describe for your shark, only has the requirement that it bites nothing else. Which means it will always rend why wouldn't it, the DM being nice is not a reason. If the requirement is only the bite then it should just be part of its bite attack and skip the entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    It does not explicitly say; it can be concluded that the grey render is rending using its bite, after having won the grapple check with its mouth.
    Or mechanically it could a rend attack, dealing piercing and slashing damage rather than a constrict (as it is not explicitly stated).
    The rend attack on a Gray render requires that it wins a grapple check with its bite attack, that is fairly explicit the rend uses the bite.

    Explain to me why, you want the Megaladon's rend to only require it hit with the bite attack if it wishes to rend, and not have it use a grapple check like with the gray render.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    YES, yes it does
    Note I didn't use the word "both," if the troll hits with two claw attacks, and not both, it is still only doing claw damage and not rend. It is an either or effect, not and; which is really quite unfortunate given the inherent limitations within the ruleset.

    The rend you describe for your shark, only has the requirement that it bites nothing else. Which means it will always rend why wouldn't it, the DM being nice is not a reason. If the requirement is only the bite then it should just be part of its bite attack and skip the entry.
    It is also unfortunate that the shark does not have any other limbs to rend with, this is probably more so a failing of the mechanics.

    The rend attack on a Gray render requires that it wins a grapple check with its bite attack, that is fairly explicit the rend uses the bite.
    This is what I already said; what I meant was that the rend is not duplicating a constrict as you implied/stated.

    Explain to me why, you want the Megaladon's rend to only require it hit with the bite attack if it wishes to rend, and not have it use a grapple check like with the gray render.
    Explain to me why you want me to rename it to a constrict attack?

    It should only need to hit the AC, it should automatically succeed upon the grapple check, and thus not necessitating one; following your argument, rends should also require a grapple check, other than that is described in the grey render's entry.

    However, and here's the fiddly bit, it probably isn't always going to rend something, it may be it will be, it may be it won't. The shark should always try to deal rend damage; since it's part and parcel of its hunting strategy.
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    I suggested constricted, because latching onto prey, and holding down with its jaw not letting go is a very shark thing to do, and the closest D&D mechanical attack I could recall was constrict I didn't remember the gray render.
    So then keep the name Rend, and add that it requires a grapple attempt just like a gray render. Its the mechanics that are more important then the name.

    AND YES the gray render's rend is essentially duplicating constrict special ability. The only real difference is the damage type and the name obviously.
    A creature with constrict and improved grab constricts with whatever attack used the grab.

    Why wouldn't it rend something? if the shark had to engaged in a grapple to rend that be a reason why it wouldn't. Grappling has its own disadvantages, especially when dealing with multiple foes. Unless it takes the -20 penalty not to be counted as grappling it self in which case its bonus isn't so super. Saying it won't always rend just because doesn't make sense.

    If it costs a creature nothing to deal extra damage the only reason it restrain its self is if it doesn't wish to kill the subject.

    What if the PC has freedom of movement and wins attempts to resist a grapple automatically. So winning a grapple check isn't 100% assured.

    And still your Engulfing Maw is still NO different then swallow hole. Being swallowed usually deals bludgeoning damage. And given your dialog on the crushing force of a shark's bite, maybe a constrict attack that deals bludgeoning damage when it grapples with its bite makes sense.

    Also the crushing bite should have its own entry, it has nothing to do with being swallowed hole. It wouldn't lose that ability to penetrate AC when biting a colossal size creature would it?
    sized creature would it?

    My argument is that things like Rend or Constrict should require something happen other then you hit. As the special attack is simply raw damage. If its automatic on hit of a single attack just lose the ability and up the damage on the creatures attack.
    Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2010-03-27 at 12:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    I suggested constricted, because latching onto prey, and holding down with its jaw not letting go is a very shark thing to do, and the closest D&D mechanical attack I could recall was constrict I didn't remember the gray render.
    So then keep the name Rend, and add that it requires a grapple attempt just like a gray render. Its the mechanics that are more important then the name.
    Thank you for your post.


    The shark latches onto prey in order to cut with its serrated teeth; since it cannot chew, it needs this movement to tear out bloody chunks. Sharks also hunt in varied ways; a favourite tactic of the great white, for example, is exploding from underneath potential prey to both disorient and confuse it, and also to savagely butt or bite at it. Shark tends to throw their prey around with their jaws

    It does not latch onto prey, holding it down with its jaw and not letting go. You may have been thinking of and confusing it with the crocodile. Or you may have been thinking of cookiecutter sharks; which utilise an entirely different and highly specialised way of feeding, since they parasistise themselves on others.

    When designing the shark, I was actually thinking of the quality in name only, not in terms of mechanics. For its intent, the name evokes an evocative description.

    Why wouldn't it rend something? if the shark had to engaged in a grapple to rend that be a reason why it wouldn't. Grappling has its own disadvantages, especially when dealing with multiple foes. Unless it takes the -20 penalty not to be counted as grappling it self in which case its bonus isn't so super. Saying it won't always rend just because doesn't make sense.

    If it costs a creature nothing to deal extra damage the only reason it restrain its self is if it doesn't wish to kill the subject.
    The closest analogue to the megalodon, the great white does not grapple to rend; instead a primary tactic is to bite the prey and then let go to ensure it bleeds to death.
    The megalodon are likely to be ambush predators, taking their prey from below as mentioned, despite or perhaps in spite of its massive size. It is highly likely that it would savage its prey though not latch onto it. It doesn't need to; thus a grapple shouldn't be necessary.

    "[...]paleontological evidence suggests that C. megalodon would attempt first to immobilize a large prey item by ripping apart or biting off its propulsive structures before killing and feeding on it."

    What if the PC has freedom of movement and wins attempts to resist a grapple automatically. So winning a grapple check isn't 100% assured.
    The rend still happens per normal.

    And still your Engulfing Maw is still NO different then swallow hole. Being swallowed usually deals bludgeoning damage. And given your dialog on the crushing force of a shark's bite, maybe a constrict attack that deals bludgeoning damage when it grapples with its bite makes sense.

    Also the crushing bite should have its own entry, it has nothing to do with being swallowed hole.
    It is different in that it combines two different attacks; first is swallow whole, the other is crushing bite. Engulfing does not limit its meaning to just swallowing, it's also a consumptive action. Hence the crushing bite makes sense as being included in its entry than in a separate one.

    A shark's bite will almost never deal bludgeoning damage, as it is a predator, it will almost always deal slashing and piercing damage; this is true save for the filter-feeder sharks or sharks like the wobbegongs, who subsist on shellfish and the like. Megalodons do not belong in either category, thus making this irrelevant. Its bite will always deal slashing and piercing damage.

    It does not make sense at all for the megalodon to have a constrict attack or have its bite deal bludgeoning damage.

    If it bothers you, you could always modify the entry to state that the rend only happens after a successful improved grab.

    It wouldn't lose that ability to penetrate AC when biting a colossal size creature would it?
    sized creature would it?
    No, it retains its ability to penetrate touch AC irrespective of the size of the creature.
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    Default Re: Megalodon

    If i retains the ability to to penetrate armor regardless of the creatures size, then why is the ability still a part of engulfing maw?
    Engulfing Maw (Ex): A megalodon can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to one size smaller by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage plus 1d8+4 points of acid damage per round from the shark's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a light slashing or piercing weapon by dealing 35 points of damage to the shark's digestive tract (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.
    A megalodon's gullet can hold 2 Gargantuan, 8 Huge or Large, 32 Medium or Small, 128 Small, 512 Diminutive, or 896 Fine or smaller opponents.
    This part of the creatures entry is in no way different then swallow hole. The following paragraph on crushing bite doesn't actually depend on the creatures size its simply a modification on the bite.

    Your engulfing maw is simply swallow hole with one extra ability added on that functions independently which you admit by saying size doesn't matter.

    So there is still no reason for it not to have a separate entry, as it stands someone reading it may skip over the engulfing maw if the shark is fighting something with freedom of movement so it couldn't use the swallow hole.

    The shark biting down and shaking its head to rend the opponent is still very much a grapple. It has to hold the prey in its mouth otherwise it get free and escape and the violent action of the rend could easily send the entire creature flying If the prey manages to slip free before the shaking NO rend would occur thus a grapple check should still be called for. The feeding style of a shark you describe still fits the description of a grapple then rend.



    Also most creatures with only a single natural attack add strength and a half to damage. So its bite should be 6d8+21. The sharks in the MM have strength and a half on bite damage.

    I also advice perhaps the feats powerful charge and Greater Powerful Charge.
    Which in total will add 8d6 damage to a charge attack for a colossal sized creature such as this.

    Also its HD is actually rather low for its size, its little higher then a dire sharks with is only huge. I'll also point out that the current believed maximum length for a megaladon is at 67ft, barely colossal sized.
    Which would probably mean the typical adult would be gargantuan and a few would be as big as colossal.
    Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2010-03-27 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Megalodon

    You still have no satisfactory explanation for why Rend is necessary. If it requires nothing but a single bite to hit and automatically deals damage, just make it flavor text and increase the damage dealt by the bite attack. Otherwise, you need to have a mechanic to trigger it. Right now, you're just making its bite deal more damage, but giving it a fancy name and hiding the bonus dice farther down the stat block. I do understand your logic, but it's not a necessary separation if there's no additional mechanic.

    If you're after bleeding wounds, perhaps allow a special grapple-based attack to deal Con damage or damage per round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    If i retains the ability to to penetrate armor regardless of the creatures size, then why is the ability still a part of engulfing maw?

    This part of the creatures entry is in no way different then swallow hole. The following paragraph on crushing bite doesn't actually depend on the creatures size its simply a modification on the bite.

    Your engulfing maw is simply swallow hole with one extra ability added on that functions independently which you admit by saying size doesn't matter.

    So there is still no reason for it not to have a separate entry, as it stands someone reading it may skip over the engulfing maw if the shark is fighting something with freedom of movement so it couldn't use the swallow hole.
    You seem to be labouring under a self-imposed, strict definition of engulfing; the word also devotes itself to the following meanings; crush, consume, overwhelm.

    I already stated in its original entry that its crushing bite will ignore touch AC irrespective of size. It is no different than before; I'm confused why you are saying that I am admitting that size doesn't matter.

    Since all created statistics for D&D should really be looked at in whole (for courtesy if little else), there is no reason for the DM or even players to skip over the entry, unless of course they are rushed for time or unless they can't be bothered.

    Your argument is like saying all other monster qualities or abilities should be divided into their own little separate entries to avoid complexity; this is, in itself, going to add tremendous amounts of bookkeeping and needless time wasting to the game.

    The shark biting down and shaking its head to rend the opponent is still very much a grapple. It has to hold the prey in its mouth otherwise it get free and escape and the violent action of the rend could easily send the entire creature flying If the prey manages to slip free before the shaking NO rend would occur thus a grapple check should still be called for. The feeding style of a shark you describe still fits the description of a grapple then rend.
    Except the shark is not establishing a hold to savage prey; it is rending with its jaws in spite of any grapple. As I said, this is different to the crocodile, who needs to (be able to) hold onto its prey to shake it. The carcharodon family of sharks does not need this action, their vicious teeth is going to shear flesh from bone irregardless of whether the prey is actually in their mouths. In fact, if a grapple is established, it becomes a nonstandard predatory action for the shark.
    You are probably confusing the feeding method of the shark with the hunting and consumptive method used by crocodiles.

    As for sending the prey flying, this is exactly the tactic used by the great white.

    Also most creatures with only a single natural attack add strength and a half to damage. So its bite should be 6d8+21. The sharks in the MM have strength and a half on bite damage.
    Ah, should have caught that, will go and edit.

    I also advice perhaps the feats powerful charge and Greater Powerful Charge.
    Which in total will add 8d6 damage to a charge attack for a colossal sized creature such as this.
    What books can they be found in?

    Also its HD is actually rather low for its size, its little higher then a dire sharks with is only huge. I'll also point out that the current believed maximum length for a megaladon is at 67ft, barely colossal sized.
    Which would probably mean the typical adult would be gargantuan and a few would be as big as colossal.
    D&D is not really the system to design realism for; its sizes categories are really poorly designed. While the maximal length is barely colossal, it is still colossal, unless of course you want to rewrite that entire creature size and scale table :P

    Of course, considering that this megalodon has a hyper-carnivore quality, realism should really take a back seat to fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicEvokerElf View Post
    You still have no satisfactory explanation for why Rend is necessary. If it requires nothing but a single bite to hit and automatically deals damage, just make it flavor text and increase the damage dealt by the bite attack. Otherwise, you need to have a mechanic to trigger it. Right now, you're just making its bite deal more damage, but giving it a fancy name and hiding the bonus dice farther down the stat block. I do understand your logic, but it's not a necessary separation if there's no additional mechanic.

    If you're after bleeding wounds, perhaps allow a special grapple-based attack to deal Con damage or damage per round.
    This is, unfortunately, where the failing of the system lies. To be able to satisfactorily emulate/simulate what the shark does, the system cannot handle the fact that the rending action of the shark does not need a grapple check. Mechanically, it forces an unnecessarily descriptor that is pretty much irrelevant. Also, see above where I provided further explanation.

    The rend action will be entirely different to its bite action; both in terms of mechanics and in terms of flavor effect; it is definitely not just giving it a fancy name with bonus dice and then calling it a day.

    Of course, you could always attach it to the shark's improved grab.
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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Powerful Charge is in MM3- and is reprinted in MM4 and MM5.

    I'm not sure what source Greater Powerful Charge is in.

    While Colossal Creatures normally have a 30 ft Space, larger Colossal Creatures do exist. Devastation Vermin in the 3.5 update to Epic Handbook are given a 50 ft Space, and the Advanced Aspect of the Leviathan in Elder Evils has a 60 ft Space.

    However, the high-end estimates of mass, for a Megalodon, do seem close to the minimums for a Colossal creature, and using those estimates (and the 67ft upper limit length) make putting it as Colossal (low end) seem reasonable.

    So- Colossal, 30 ft space, fairly low Hit Dice (for a Colossal predator) seems to make sense.

    Megalodon has been reconstructed a lot of times- its worth remembering that the 67 ft version is based on the largest tooth ever discovered, so it's entirely probably that a "normal-sized" adult Megalodon would have been more like 52 ft long:

    http://www.elasmo-research.org/educa..._megalodon.htm

    Though a more fantasy-style shark could be done as bigger.
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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Powerful Charge is in MM3- and is reprinted in MM4 and MM5.

    I'm not sure what source Greater Powerful Charge is in.

    While Colossal Creatures normally have a 30 ft Space, larger Colossal Creatures do exist. Devastation Vermin in the 3.5 update to Epic Handbook are given a 50 ft Space, and the Advanced Aspect of the Leviathan in Elder Evils has a 60 ft Space.

    However, the high-end estimates of mass, for a Megalodon, do seem close to the minimums for a Colossal creature, and using those estimates (and the 67ft upper limit length) make putting it as Colossal (low end) seem reasonable.

    So- Colossal, 30 ft space, fairly low Hit Dice (for a Colossal predator) seems to make sense.

    Megalodon has been reconstructed a lot of times- its worth remembering that the 67 ft version is based on the largest tooth ever discovered, so it's entirely probably that a "normal-sized" adult Megalodon would have been more like 52 ft long:

    http://www.elasmo-research.org/educa..._megalodon.htm

    Though a more fantasy-style shark could be done as bigger.
    Which was my point, at most the shark would get up to Colossal sized, ie by advancing HD. Greater Powerful Charge can be found in the Eberron Campaign setting.

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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Yup- if you're trying to work with the existing sizing system (rather than inventing your own) and trying to use a statblock that represents the animal's size as accurately as it is so far estimated to be, Gargantuan advancing to Colossal probably works better.

    Though that statblock looks like it would be just fine for a megalodon of maximum size (dropping the Advancement line).

    It's not a problem for it to be only a tiny bit off from the minimum for colossal (114 short tons is the highest I've seen listed, compared to 125 short tons on page 314 of the Monster Manual- still- that's a small enough gap that it's acceptable).
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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Oddly enough it has the same HD as the official gargantuan megalodon from the MMII, though this is probably a decent 3.5 update as it does things like give it feats which wasn't a standard practice in 3.0, despite its nonsensical abilities.

    But a shark doesn't bite through metal because its teeth are razor sharp or strong, but because of the massive bite strength. Not only should crushing bite have its own entry it should only exist on magical creatures.

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    Default Re: Megalodon

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    This is, unfortunately, where the failing of the system lies. To be able to satisfactorily emulate/simulate what the shark does, the system cannot handle the fact that the rending action of the shark does not need a grapple check. Mechanically, it forces an unnecessarily descriptor that is pretty much irrelevant. Also, see above where I provided further explanation.
    Or you don't want to let go of this terminology (which is fine), and are trying to find a mechanical reason to include the ability. The easy way to handle this would be to write your description of how the shark bites into the flavor text so a DM could tell the players how it's biting them. Mechanically, this really is nothing more than a really high-damage bite attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    The rend action will be entirely different to its bite action; both in terms of mechanics and in terms of flavor effect; it is definitely not just giving it a fancy name with bonus dice and then calling it a day.
    Why not? Its only effect, mechanically, is damage, and it triggers on every single attack. Therefore, all you are doing by separating it is taking up more space in the stat block and making it easier for a DM to forget to apply in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel View Post
    Of course, you could always attach it to the shark's improved grab.
    That's what I'm advocating. Currently, regardless of the actual action the creature is taking, it's just how it bites. It will tear its prey every time, and there's no mechanical reason to separate that from the bite attack. It makes sense (mechanically and physically) to require a grapple check, though, as it's what happens when the shark grabs its prey and shakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiel
    The shark latches onto prey in order to cut with its serrated teeth; since it cannot chew, it needs this movement to tear out bloody chunks. Sharks also hunt in varied ways; a favourite tactic of the great white, for example, is exploding from underneath potential prey to both disorient and confuse it, and also to savagely butt or bite at it. Shark tends to throw their prey around with their jaws
    This sounds exactly like grappling (albeit with improved grab): the shark grabs its prey via a bite attack, deals additional damage via the grapple (which is where Rend would be activated), and lets go after a round. It's not considered grappled itself (Imp. Grab).

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