Masterwork Tool for UMD?

[Kurald Galain]

Not at all. The whole point of having tools in the real world is to be better at skills. You don't need tools to see a small object, but magnifying glasses help. You don't need tools to swim fast, but flippers help. This is what the "masterwork tool" is supposed to replicate in the game world. Just because some skills (like "use rope" for example) cannot be used without a tool doesn't mean they are the only ones that can be better performed with one.

While that sounds not unreasonable, you have to admit that RAW doesn't actually say so, and that the other interpretation (that skills which don't use tools also don't have masterwork tools) is equally valid.

As a related issue: whenever the MW tool for anything is asserted to be any kind of reference book or any kind of laboratory equipment, using the skill would logically take several rounds. How many seconds does it take you to find something in a paper encyclopedia?

[Sinfire Titan]

While that sounds not unreasonable, you have to admit that RAW doesn't actually say so, and that the other interpretation (that skills which don't use tools also don't have masterwork tools) is equally valid.

As a related issue: whenever the MW tool for anything is asserted to be any kind of reference book or any kind of laboratory equipment, using the skill would logically take several rounds. How many seconds does it take you to find something in a paper encyclopedia?

Hence why I always suggest a Pokedex for the Knowledge tools.

[Irreverent Fool]

Not at all. The whole point of having tools in the real world is to be better at skills. You don't need tools to see a small object, but magnifying glasses help. You don't need tools to swim fast, but flippers help. This is what the "masterwork tool" is supposed to replicate in the game world. Just because some skills (like "use rope" for example) cannot be used without a tool doesn't mean they are the only ones that can be better performed with one.

I hereby declare masterwork flippers to be the tool that grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Use Magic Device checks.

Why? Because the magic devices are making fun of you, that's why.

Edit: Alternatively, deely-boppers.

obnoxious
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[Strategos]

I have a question.

What would a Masterwork Tool be for UMD?

How about a Shamble normally they're made up from string, something live and whatever you've got lying around in your pockets, so buy the tool and always make sure you have say an egg some string a bunch of stuff in your pockets to use as it.

[mucat]

If I were DMing, I'm not sure I would allow masterwork tools for UMD at all (in part because they amount to a "+2 to almost everything you do" for artificers, who are already a very powerful class.)

If I did allow them, one possible form would be a pair of gloves made out of some magically-sensitive material; as you try to activate the item, you can feel the changing magic fluxes in your fingertips, and use that as feedback to whether you're doing it right. A pair of goggles with magically-sensitive lenses would work along similar lines. In both cases, they don't let you detect magic at will (unless they're enchanted to do that as well) because they detect changes in the item's aura as you try to activate it, not the unchanging aura of a magic item just sitting there.

[Curmudgeon]

All tools have to be usable without increasing the time for the skill. Since Use Magic Device takes no time itself, and device activation can be as quick as a free or swift action, the tool can't be cumbersome. A reference book isn't an appropriate tool for UMD (but would be for Gather Information, which takes hours). So something like a square of silk would be my call. Rubbing silk on something can generate static electricity, which seems like a helpful addition if you're trying to get a device to start working.

[Riffington]

Which weighs 1lb?

Mmm, probably closer to the alchemists' lab (which is 40 lb and 500 gp). The generic "1 lb 50 gp tool" is just a starting point; the DM should decide whether/what kind of tool exists for certain skills. Not all prices are (or should be) the same.

All tools have to be usable without increasing the time for the skill.

What is the support for this? Climber's kit probably takes longer to use than most walls take to climb... same is likely true for appraise and scales.

[Yukitsu]

Well if your DM already allowed it, I suggest a bottle of placebos. So long as you don't know what you're taking, they give you the confidence to activate them better.

[Curmudgeon]

What is the support for this?

Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any).

The tool's description does not include any mention of change in the skill use time.

Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

Absent any exception noted for the MW tool, we have to follow the existing rules, and UMD takes only the time required for device activation -- nothing more.

[Lamech]

A fancy hat. Its totally, a fancy hat. Or some U-235. If you want to be serious its a crystal/gem or an extra fancy spell component pouch.

[DragoonWraith]

While that sounds not unreasonable, you have to admit that RAW doesn't actually say so, and that the other interpretation (that skills which don't use tools also don't have masterwork tools) is equally valid.

I disagree. RAW says that Masterwork Tools are available for what ever skill you might want them in. A special sheath for Iajutsu checks. A piece of leather to bite down on for Autohypnosis. Whatever. RAW doesn't specify what they are, just that you should be able to get one.

Skillmonkeys don't need the nerf. Seriously. The guy worried about artificers, OK, that I can see - but Artificers are not going to be stopped by not having a masterwork tool, at all, since they'll have a better magical competence bonus to UMD pretty quickly anyway. Plus they'll set up their abilities for it. A Rogue doesn't always have that luxury.

[Yukitsu]

I disagree. RAW says that Masterwork Tools are available for what ever skill you might want them in. A special sheath for Iajutsu checks. A piece of leather to bite down on for Autohypnosis. Whatever. RAW doesn't specify what they are, just that you should be able to get one.

No, no it doesn't. It states that every tool has a skill. Not that every skill has a tool.

[Irreverent Fool]

No, no it doesn't. It states that every tool has a skill. Not that every skill has a tool.

I fail to see how this is relevant to the OP's question.

I stand by flippers or deely-boppers.

(Though the magically-sensitive gloves makes sense. Isn't there some sort of material mentioned somewhere that fulfills this?)

obnoxious
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[Kurald Galain]

I disagree. RAW says that Masterwork Tools are available for what ever skill you might want them in.

Please provide an URL or PHB page number for that statement.

[Volthawk]

I went for the gloves, and the DM said it was OK. Thanks for the help (I couldn't think of anything).

[Riffington]

The tool's description does not include any mention of change in the skill use time. Absent any exception noted for the MW tool, we have to follow the existing rules, and UMD takes only the time required for device activation -- nothing more.

That is all true (unless the DM actually bothers to invent a MW tool, in which case she obviously needs to invent rules for its use).

However, unpacking a tool is still a different action (or set of actions) than using the skill. There is no requirement that unpacking it be included in the skill action.

[Longcat]

Personally, I think the item should be called:

The Magic Item Compendium

[Killer Angel]

A book of standard magical phrases, with a page (as in the dictionary) showing the right pronuntiation of the magical letters.
Also, it's possible to have a masterwork-made grip for wands, that helps in keeping your fingers in the right position to wave the item.

[Ormur]

All tools have to be usable without increasing the time for the skill.

Libraries are includes as tools for bonuses on knowledge skills in the SBG and they cost more than MW tools and referencing the books certainly takes more time than the "usually none" stated in the SRD for knowledge checks. Different skills require different tools and the "(if any)" clause in the tools section seems to introduce some uncertainty. The tools usually require some extra effort to use but how much depends on the skill in question. I'm not saying a simple masterwork UMD tool that take no extra time to use would be unreasonable but that it's not a given, it could be a 500 gp UMD laboratory.

[Ormagoden]

This except instead of stars is magical words and information. /thread

[Darkfire]

Personally, I think the item should be called:
The Magic Item Compendium

Perfect.

Honestly, it's down to the player's ingenuity to come up with a feasible mundane tool and up to the DM whether or not the bonus it provides is realistically applicable in a given situation/time-frame. A reference book cannot be quickly referred to in combat but, if you had access to whatever device you're trying to activate plus the book and had an hour or so to read and experiment, it would be reasonable to give the bonus.

[ericgrau]

Except there is. There's a tool for every skill, you just need to justify it.

Nononono. There can be, doesn't mean there is one for every skill. But it's true that if you can justify it then you've got your tool.

[Darkfire]

Nononono. There can be, doesn't mean there is one for every skill. But it's true that if you can justify it then you've got your tool.

And if you can't, pay the extra 350gp and get a magical widget that does the same thing.

[ericgrau]

Ha, that's subject to DM approval and a known source of abuse.

Besides that, yes, a +2 makes a difference. It's hard to pump UMD at low levels and being able to use wands reliably 2 levels earlier is a big deal. And then to start using scrolls reliably. At higher levels you can use spells 1 level higher, also huge. Or the higher level scrolls are too expensive and you don't bother increasing UMD anyway, in which case it doesn't matter either way.

[BadJuJu]

All tools have to be usable without increasing the time for the skill. Since Use Magic Device takes no time itself, and device activation can be as quick as a free or swift action, the tool can't be cumbersome. A reference book isn't an appropriate tool for UMD (but would be for Gather Information, which takes hours). So something like a square of silk would be my call. Rubbing silk on something can generate static electricity, which seems like a helpful addition if you're trying to get a device to start working.

Maybe you have been studying the refrence book in your free time?

[Ernir]

Silk/Displacer beast hide/Dragonskin gloves, makes it easier to connect to the magical energies of magical items.
A custom wandgrip for you, and a mechanism for auto-scroll-unfurling.

Your lucky underpants?

Maybe you have been studying the refrence book in your free time?

The way I read it, the tool is a piece of equipment, something that doesn't work unless you have it on hand. (That is, if you lose the tool, you lose the bonus.) A studied book wouldn't really work that way.

[DragoonWraith]

No, no it doesn't. It states that every tool has a skill. Not that every skill has a tool.

Which means that if you make up a tool that makes sense for a given skill, it should give you +2 to it. It's effectively the same thing.

Unless you care to prove that a UMD MW Tool is actually, literally impossible.

[Mastikator]

A book entitled "How to Win Friends and Influence Magic Items".

I was never able to wrap my brain around the concept that a particularly charismatic rogue could figure out how to use a magical item or scroll that a dedicated Wizard (when casting divine stuff) or Cleric (when casting arcane stuff) was incapable of using or how said rogue could trick a magic item, that will not work for certain races/genders/classes/alignments, into working for them.

Same question could be asked on why sorcerers base their magic on charisma.

[AtwasAwamps]

A pixie wizard.

[Telonius]

One of these.