[3.5/PF]Using firearms rules from the DMG to give "archer" characters effectiveness?

[Eclipse]

So, we all know casters get to be insanely powerful. Melee can use some shenanigans to get lots of bonus damage from strength. More importantly, they have the Tome of Battle to increase their combat options. Archers... get whatever bonus comes from enhancement bonuses and the composite bonus on their longbows, assuming they have the strength to get said bonuses.

So, given that I don't particularly want to houserule in a new ToB Discipline for archers and create a new class for them, and I'm a tad leary of using the ones that have been created online (at least for now), what do people think about giving archers access to the firearms (modern and futuristic) in the DMG?

Assuming they're phased in slowly (with grenade launchers coming in sometime after mages get their fireballs), would this overpower archer classes/characters? Give them a needed boost but not put them up to snuff? Put them in the sweet spot of power? Have other unintended effects I'm not aware of? And does anyone have any particular recommendations on the best levels to introduce these weapons?

As far as enchantments go, I'm thinking to use the list of enchantments that bows get. Because most guns are so powerful, I'm considering doubling the cost of all enchantments, but I'm not sure if that's truly necessary or not.

As a final note, I know damage isn't the only thing to consider when helping classes out. However, archers do have the advantage of mobility and distance, so I wonder if this would do enough to really let them take advantage of this aspect of play.

Guns fit the campaign world I'm considering just fine, but it could go just as well without them. So, am I setting myself up for a nightmare? Or could this work out well?

[Trinoya]

I utilize guns in my campaign world.. although they are certainly not from the DMG or D20 modern.

That said, even my 1850 style fire arm races don't have access to grenade launchers...

Back to the point of the thread though, archers as near as I can tell do just fine. With low level abilities that can allow them to fire off more than one projectile at a time (and abilities to remove the penalties for doing so) and prestige classes that give archers alone bonuses I think you're underestimating the archer.

Heck, a level four human fighter archery build has six feats that he can focus on his weapon with...

Weapon focus (bow of choice)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Many Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Rapid Shot...

That's some hefty attack power...

This fourth level character with a +2 magic composite long bow (+2 str rating) striking within 30 ft gets two attacks per round at no penalty, with 4+Dex modifier to the attack dealing out 1D8+2+2+1 damage, assuming a roll of a 1 that's still six points of damage with a possibility for 13 damage per hit or 26 damage per round maximum... and that's not counting critical hits or if he happens to have any other magical equipment or enchantments (like magical arrows)

[Mystic Muse]

Well, the main problem I can see is that later levels the game would LITERALLY become rocket tag.

Just make sure nobody tries to get a Spartan laser.

[Eldariel]

Heck, a level four human fighter archery build has six feats that he can focus on his weapon with...

Weapon focus (bow of choice)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Many Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Rapid Shot...

That's some hefty attack power...

This fourth level character with a +2 magic composite long bow (+2 str rating) striking within 30 ft gets two attacks per round at no penalty, with 4+Dex modifier to the attack dealing out 1D8+2+2+1 damage, assuming a roll of a 1 that's still six points of damage with a possibility for 13 damage per hit or 26 damage per round maximum... and that's not counting critical hits or if he happens to have any other magical equipment or enchantments (like magical arrows)

Except most of that is coming from his magical bow, his average damage per turn is 9.5 and he's taken two feats he doesn't qualify for. Also, all that only applies within 30'. And look at that number of feats he's invested! That better give him some impressive damage output.


@OP: It'd help, at least. That said, I'm not sure how crazy your average Archer is about suddenly playing a gunman. Also, I'm not sure how sensible the firearm rules are for D&D ("I has this gun but it cannot pierce your Plate!"). So...I can see where you're coming from but I'd think twice. I'd probably rather add Dex to damage for bows & xbows or something.

[Rising Phoenix]

I have to post this:

http://www.malhavocpress.com/images/Technology.pdf

One of my characters is using a dragon rifle and is quite effective atm.

Cheers,

R.P.

[Fizban]

I haven't totaled it up, but I'm pretty sure an archer can get a pretty decent amount of energy damage going on if you want to focus on it. Magic bow +flaming/frost/etc, +lesser energy assault crystal, +quiver of energy, +wand of burning sword, +wand of sonic weapon. Depending on how your DM reads the crystal of energy assault, that's at least +7d6 possible, albeit very easy to resist with energy resistance. Make sure you're using one of the various splatbook bows that adjusts to your strength modifier and pump it up as high as possible: strength is actually more important for an archer than for a melee fighter, since you can't use power attack.

As for using the modern firearms out of the DMG, they wouldn't break the game or particularly help archers. The rifle deals 2d10 damage, average 11, which one could compare to 1d8+7, average 11.5. So, the gun takes the place of a +7 strength bonus and a big composite bow, and has to be reloaded every five shots. The automatic rifle lasts long enough you might not need to reload it in combat, but it only averages 9 damage, which an archer can match with only a +5 strength bonus. If the modern weapons are as easy to obtain as the medieval standard, it will mean a slight increase in power as a ranged attacker can focus their ability scores on defense and to-hit, and the money they would spend on strength can go into more energy enhancements. If the modern weapons are more difficult to obtain then it will only help those who dedicated themselves to firearms from first level, ie: characters created at a higher level where they will automatically have guns.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, the main problem I can see is that later levels the game would LITERALLY become rocket tag.

Just make sure nobody tries to get a Spartan laser.

But Spartan lazers have to charged for 2 rds before they fire. Sure, they kill most things when they do hit, but nonetheless that is 2 rounds.

[Trinoya]

Minor snafu forgetting that many shot required BA 6 (been so long since I've dealt with many shot), but regardless let me adress some of your points.


You're presuming that archers can not be as capable as melee characters, which is entirely incorrect. Both can depend on strength scores for bonus damage, both can utilize heavy magical enhancements, and both can have various magical items to supplement their abilities. Hell, the archer most likely has higher versatility than the fighter in that he can shoot at range.

Both also have access to some pretty nifty prestige classes as well, which can often give the damage bonuses and abilities you're looking for (and often these classes have much easier requirements than spell caster prestige classes)

Besides, your big issue here seems to be that they don't get the 'power' of other long range types (namely casters) which is true, of course they get the trade off (normally) in hit die and other abilities, not to mention skill points if they chose to be a non-fighter.

The simple fact of the matter is that archers aren't supposed to gain the equivalent of disintegrates at 11th level, nor the power of fireballs at 5th, and neither are fighters for that matter. Wizards have to generally focus their builds into metamagic or other feats to get the true trade off for their spells and at the end of the day anyone of them can be stopped by a well placed arrow. And again, there is always the issue of magic weapons = constant source of heavy damage while spells are a minor source.

Just make sure that people have wealth per level and it shouldn't be an issue.

[absolmorph]

Trinoya, a caster with absolutely no optimization can easily throw out decent damage.
Scorching Ray, which deals 4d6 (average 14) at level 3, 8d6 (average 28) at level 7 and 12d6 (average 42) at level 11.
Fireball, which deals [caster level]d6 damage to a 20 ft radius. This is 5d6 (average 17.5) at level 5 and up to 10d6 (average 35) at level 10.
Lightning Bolt, which hits a 120 ft line (24 squares) for the same damage as Fireball.
Cone of Cold, which scales at the same rate as the last two, and deals up to 15d6 (average 52.5) at level 15.

And those are just the obvious ones.
Wizards don't have to focus on damage to be really good at it. They just have to pick up a spell or two.

On-topic, I'd say go ahead and allow them. If it gets to be too good, talk to the players who're focusing on them about nerfing 'em a bit.

[imp_fireball]

I don't understand why people keep applying the .5 rule to damage. That only works with HD averages, since it's an explicit rule in the books - there's nothing in applied mathematical probability about it all. So enough of that.

Average max level fireball damage is not 35, it's 30.

Regarding firearms, magical enhancements could be applied to those as well. Arguably, you could have certain advantages over using an automatic versus regular arrows even though there's no such thing as a composite firearm equivalent (no strength bonuses) unless you wanna include a special rule I invented for heavy firearms that take high str characters into consideration (high str characters can handle higher recoil from heavier firearms).

[ryzouken]

Instant damage cannon archer: splitting enchanment
Every arrow you fire creates a second. Now stack flaming frost shock acidic enchants on some +1 arrows and you've got a full attack for

10d8 (arrows) + 10d6 fire + 10d6 frost + 10d6 electricity + 10d6 acid + Str mod + 5 enhancement +X other.

A buddy of mine has an archer doing something like this, except he manages to get up to 50 arrows at once in a full attack. Can't remember how, for the life of me, he does it though.

Ends up being: no ranged attack/energy immunity/resistance? You're toast.

EDIT: pretty sure the .5 "rule" came from mathematics, wherein the statistical average of a d6 roll is, exactly, 3.5. You can check this yourself by adding the sides of a d6 and dividing by 6.

[Fiery Diamond]

Trinoya, a caster with absolutely no optimization can easily throw out decent damage.
Scorching Ray, which deals 4d6 (average 14) at level 3, 8d6 (average 28) at level 7 and 12d6 (average 42) at level 11.
Fireball, which deals [caster level]d6 damage to a 20 ft radius. This is 5d6 (average 17.5) at level 5 and up to 10d6 (average 35) at level 10.
Lightning Bolt, which hits a 120 ft line (24 squares) for the same damage as Fireball.
Cone of Cold, which scales at the same rate as the last two, and deals up to 15d6 (average 52.5) at level 15.

And those are just the obvious ones.
Wizards don't have to focus on damage to be really good at it. They just have to pick up a spell or two.

On-topic, I'd say go ahead and allow them. If it gets to be too good, talk to the players who're focusing on them about nerfing 'em a bit.

True. On the other hand, if your Wizard is focusing on blasting like that, he still can't do it very many times per day. Sorcerers are better blasters than Wizards. Wizards really should be making use of their versatility to do things other than blasting.

[absolmorph]

I don't understand why people keep applying the .5 rule to damage. That only works with HD averages, since it's an explicit rule in the books - there's nothing in applied mathematical probability about it all. So enough of that.

Average max level fireball damage is not 35, it's 30.

Regarding firearms, magical enhancements could be applied to those as well. Arguably, you could have certain advantages over using an automatic versus regular arrows even though there's no such thing as a composite firearm equivalent (no strength bonuses) unless you wanna include a special rule I invented for heavy firearms that take high str characters into consideration (high str characters can handle higher recoil from heavier firearms).

-sigh-
1+2+3+4+5+6=21
21/6=3.5
The average roll of a d6 is 3.5

And Fiery Diamond, the post was a demonstration of the possible damage output of casters in general. I just said "wizards" because most people think of 'em when they talk about casters.

[imp_fireball]

Instant damage cannon archer: splitting enchanment
Every arrow you fire creates a second. Now stack flaming frost shock acidic enchants on some +1 arrows and you've got a full attack for

10d8 (arrows) + 10d6 fire + 10d6 frost + 10d6 electricity + 10d6 acid + Str mod + 5 enhancement +X other.

A buddy of mine has an archer doing something like this, except he manages to get up to 50 arrows at once in a full attack. Can't remember how, for the life of me, he does it though.

Ends up being: no ranged attack/energy immunity/resistance? You're toast.

That's clearly close to epic level though (+5 enhancement?) - so you're not too far away from greater many shot (which continues the many shot progression). The sheer cost of the arrows catapults it into epic though probably.

Anyway, 8 arrows in one round from many shot at BAB 16, with the splitting arrow enhancement equals 16 arrows +... ah crap, forgot haste didn't double attacks unless you wanna rule that it allows 5 additional attacks (1 + many shot bonus attacks), which would equal out to 26 arrows.

Ends up being: no ranged attack/energy immunity/resistance? You're toast.

Blur or the ability to dimension door to total cover as an immediate action (from a PRC?)... GG.

-sigh-
1+2+3+4+5+6=21
21/6=3.5
The average roll of a d6 is 3.5

They didn't teach that formula in school. /commits sepuku

[Deth Muncher]

Hey, this may not be what you need, but go look at the Firearms Guide in my sig. It may have something you need.

[imp_fireball]

I was thinking that guns like blunderbuss's could still do critical damage since there's some aiming involved. You could probably blow off someone's head instead of their stomach.

Spells like fireball I always considered to not involve much aiming. And the blast is rather unpredictable - there's merely a center of origin and blast radius, not necessarily a specific body part. You can't attach a delayed blast fireball to someone's heart or cranium (unless the spell lists it as a touch attack in which case it should do critical damage). Note that the critical strike would apply to the specific target and then regular damage would affect everyone else in the radius.

Now that I think about it, there should be spell enhancements - it's just that they might take up additional spell slots or cost additional reagents (they'd be small things, like adhesive delayed blast fireball - you could will it to adhede, so say someone picks up the bead, then you can will it to stick to their hand and they won't be able to pull it off before it explodes - or you could just leave it sticking to the ground). Anyone feel like homebrewing that?

[ryzouken]

you can lessen the number of elemental enchants as funds permit. Also remember that the splitting is effectively halving your ammo costs. You're firing 5 arrows and getting 10 worth in damage.

Even the bow can be cheap if your party mage or cleric can afford a Greater Magic Weapon casting each day. +1 Splitting is a +2 bow. Arrows are very expensive over time, but eventually you'll be wanting to get a quiver of energy, and see if you can't get your DM to combine multiple quivers of energy into a single quiver of awesomesauce.

else, yeah. 50 arrows of +1 elemental death cost 72,000 gp and the bow would cost another 72,000 gp meaning you would be 14th level before it could be pulled off. Of course, if you're capable of casting a 3rd level spell with a decent CL (I'm thinking Abjurant Champion's 5th level ability might matter here) you can subsume 68,000 gp worth of enchants. Applicable at level 12 now. Remove two elemental damage enchants, and now we're staring down a cost of 22k gp, meaning it can be done as early as level 9.

@ lv9 : 4 arrows for d8 +2d6+ str+ 2 =avg dmg of 66
@ lv 12: 6 arrows for d8 +4d6 +str +3=avg dmg of 147
@ lv 20: 10 arrows for d8 +4d6 +str +5= avg dmg of 265

there ya go. Build stub: Wiz 1 Fighter 14 Abjurant Champ 5. Sure. Why not. could do anything that qualifies for Abj Champ prereqs and gets G Mag Wpn, but that'll work. BAB 19, 3rd level spells, CL 19. Totally not a gish since it's just using a single spell to subsume equipment costs.

[Trinoya]

Trinoya, a caster with absolutely no optimization can easily throw out decent damage.

I never said they couldn't. You're misreading what I wrote. I said that they need to focus on metamagic and other feats to get the true trade off for their spells, which they do.

Not all metamagics and certainly not all arcane feats, are damage based. Besides, the true power of the wizard is not in damage but in control and disruption.


And again, the wizard will run out of magic long before your average archer runs out of his magic weapons, items and arrows.

[icefractal]

And again, the wizard will run out of magic long before your average archer runs out of his magic weapons, items and arrows.

Technically true, but not generally relevant. Archers (and all characters, for that matter), do have a resource that gets depleted and requires rest to recover. That resource is called "HP".

Unless you have a source of unlimited healing, the non-casters will be able to - at best - go one more fight than the casters, because by that point they will be low on HP and there will be no spells left to heal them.

Now sure, if a Wizard is using Quicken to throw direct-damage spells around like a drunken sailor, then they could run out pretty fast. But with equally or more effective conjurations that last the entire battle, they've probably got more endurance than the front-line types, seeing as they're getting hit less.

[Eclipse]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the input. Sounds like people a pretty well split on this, which doesn't surprise me too much.

Based on your input, I'm thinking of giving this a try with my players if using guns doesn't feel too weird to them. When the campaign actually comes up, which will probably be a while away yet.

Still thinking about doing away with the actual explosive weaponry, or delaying it's availability until 10th level or so, while the single target guns will mostly be available from the outset. Then my players and I can tweak from there once we see how it works out.

[ryzouken]

I'd refluff guns a bit, were it me.

See, gunpowder inspires... interesting, reactions to obstacles. If your players are anything like mine (ruleslawyering, egomanaical, creative, little... ahem!) you'll be staring at gunpowder barrels and bomblets being thrown at monsters, walls, etc. Then you have to adjudicate how much each thing does, and how it interacts (or doesn't) with spell effects. Then there's the issue of "Multilevel dungeon? We'll just blast through the walls and floor to reach the mcguffin and move on!"

Really, gunpowder is... bad. maybe just a mechanical device called a gun that uses a tiny launch item spell trigger item to fire projectiles. Then ammunition would be plentiful, but the cartridges would need to be swapped out every 1-50 shots or so (and those, of course, would be more rare).

But then, I'm still in the archery is fine camp.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You could also make saltpeter rare or controlled by a cartel. That way if the group wastes barrels of gunpowder in a dungeon you have a built-in reason to keep them from it afterward, but they still have the (oh-so-wonderful) capability to pull off some large explosion stunt at least once. Just have your BBEG be savvy enough (or have savvy-enough people around him) to avoid those pesky explosions and you're fine.

[Eclipse]

I'm not too worried about abuse of gunpowder. There are already other ways to get that explosive effect, and if they really want to start cracking open bullets to get at the gunpowder inside, it'll take time, leaving me with fun options. Thanks for the suggestions though.

[AtwasAwamps]

Zen Archery. Two Weapon Fighting.

There are no problem with this concept whatsoever. Do it! Do it! I want dual-handgun-wielding rangers rapidshotting off the back of their dire wolf animal companion mounts. I don't care how you do it.