3.5 Sneak Attack

[Murphy80]

How would you rule; Looking for RAW

3.5 rogue with darkvision, in complete darkness attacking an animal (say, a dire rat) with scent. Does the rogue get sneak attack or not?

Environmental darkness
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

Rogue/sneak attack
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack

Scent
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

[SSGoW]

Depends, does the rogue have anything masking his scent? Cause if you are in a sewer (where a dire rat should be) and the rogue is covered in....muck.. then he will smell just like the surroundings..

Yes if he smells like the surroundings, no if he doesn't (unless the rat is flanked?)

[Lin Bayaseda]

The only thing Scent allows you to do is pinpoint the location of your enemy. Therefore, you can overcome this limitation:

All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach. For ranged attacks or spells against a foe whose location is not pinpointed, roll to determine which adjacent square the blinded creature is facing; its attack is directed at the closest target that lies in that direction.

But this still stands:

A blinded creature loses its Dexterity adjustment to AC and takes a -2 penalty to AC.

Sneak attack galore!

[jpreem]

Lin you got there first - OP your dire rat is still in the blind. It just knows in which square the invisible Pc is.

[SSGoW]

Also does this animal live in the dark like rats tend to do? If so they may be used to not being able to see and thus have no problem being "blinded"

I knew a dog that had no eyes (raccoon fights) and could find you anywhere with pin point accuracy, could even smell when you brought your hand close (he would lick your hand/bare feet whenever he had the chance... weird dog)

[PinkysBrain]

Mechanically that would be blind sight, not scent.

[Glimbur]

The Blind Fight feat would also do that; at least it lets you avoid sneak attack from invisible critters.

[Paulus]

How would you rule; Looking for RAW

3.5 rogue with darkvision, in complete darkness attacking an animal (say, a dire rat) with scent. Does the rogue get sneak attack or not?

Depends on two things. Listen check and if Scent works.
Listen works, it knows you are there. No sneak attack
Listen fails, it don't know you are there. Sneak attack.

If scent works, no, no sneak attacks. The Rat knows you are there.
If scent is marooned by anything, yes, sneak attack works. The Rat does not know you are there.

After the first sneak attack. The rat knows you are there. And you must escape and make a hide check, move silently check, avoid detection to make another sneak attack. Assuming of course YOU know where the rat is.

S'how I'd rule rule it.

[JaronK]

Depends on two things. Listen check and if Scent works.
Listen works, it knows you are there. No sneak attack
Listen fails, it don't know you are there. Sneak attack.

Listen tells you where something is, but you still can't see it so it's effectively invisible to you. You need to beat the Rogue's hide check with spot to actually see it (unless you have Blindsight).

JaronK

[Keld Denar]

Depends on two things. Listen check and if Scent works.
Listen works, it knows you are there. No sneak attack
Listen fails, it don't know you are there. Sneak attack.

If scent works, no, no sneak attacks. The Rat knows you are there.
If scent is marooned by anything, yes, sneak attack works. The Rat does not know you are there.

After the first sneak attack. The rat knows you are there. And you must escape and make a hide check, move silently check, avoid detection to make another sneak attack. Assuming of course YOU know where the rat is.

S'how I'd rule rule it.

Its entirely possible to know where someone is, and still be flatfooted to them. Consider Blinking. Blinking foes are effectively invisible with respect to how they attack, yet its still possible to target them with spells and effects.

Even if you pinpoint a foe via Listen, Scent, BlindSENSE, Mindsight, Tremorsense, or any other form of detection other than See Invisible*, Trueseeing, or BlindSIGHT, they still have full concealment and would thus be privvy to attacking as invisible and have 50% miss chance if you attacked them.

*where applicable, doesn't work in darkness for obvious reasons

EDIT: You always know what square you've been attacked from if the attacker is 5' away and hits. In that sense, everyone gets blindsense 5' radius against anyone who's hit them, provided the attacker doesn't move after the attack.

[Eldariel]

*where applicable, doesn't work in darkness for obvious reasons

Actually, True Seeing works in Darkness just fine. "The subject sees through normal and magical darkness..." It's just mundane barriers it cannot pierce (such as fogs, walls, etc.).

[ericgrau]

Scent Blindsense is overrated, as it can be replaced with an easy listen check most of the time. And, ya, sneak attack away. Blindsight is what would save the target.

Scent is even less than that. It does not give you the square or even the general direction of a creature. It gives you the presence of a creature. A move action gives you the direction to the creature. You need to be within 5 feet and spend a move action to get his square.

[Paulus]

Listen tells you where something is, but you still can't see it so it's effectively invisible to you. You need to beat the Rogue's hide check with spot to actually see it (unless you have Blindsight).

JaronK

Its entirely possible to know where someone is, and still be flatfooted to them. Consider Blinking. Blinking foes are effectively invisible with respect to how they attack, yet its still possible to target them with spells and effects.

Even if you pinpoint a foe via Listen, Scent, BlindSENSE, Mindsight, Tremorsense, or any other form of detection other than See Invisible*, Trueseeing, or BlindSIGHT, they still have full concealment and would thus be privvy to attacking as invisible and have 50% miss chance if you attacked them.

*where applicable, doesn't work in darkness for obvious reasons

EDIT: You always know what square you've been attacked from if the attacker is 5' away and hits. In that sense, everyone gets blindsense 5' radius against anyone who's hit them, provided the attacker doesn't move after the attack.

*shrug* I'd still rule if it knows you are there you can't sneak attack it.
No matter how it may or may not know you are there, point is if it knows you are there it wouldn't really be attacked without knowing you are there.

er...

Anyway, if my player argued, "Okay it knows where I am but now when or what I am attacking." Then I'd have to go into "Well you can't call what you are attacking, you just attack, since there are no called shots and what not. It will know when you are attacking in the same manner it detected you in the first place, in that, it smells you getting closer or hears you getting closer or feels you getting closer that sort of thing." In which case he if really wants to argue it further I would allow him sneak attack dmg only on the first attack but not on the rest since it would then definitely know you were there, and be on guard for further attacks.

Least, that's what I'd do.

[PhoenixRivers]

Scent, and blindsense, both still allow the target total concealment. This denies dexterity to AC, and allows sneak attack.

Remember, kids. It's not about whether or not it knows you're there. It's about whether or not it can effectively defend from your blows. If it can't see the dagger inbound, it can't dodge or block it.

[Keld Denar]

Then you are nerfing nearly every way a rogue gets sneak attack, other than ambush or flank.

Invisibility
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check.

By your rule, an invisible rogue couldn't sneak attack anyone who can make a DC20 Listen check, because the person would know they are there. Just knowing they are there isn't enough. You don't know which angle they are attacking from, what type of attack to ward against (thrust, slash, whatever) or even what part of your body to guard. That is why anyone you can't see always gets SA. Its virtually impossible to protect yourself.

[Eldariel]

Anyway, if my player argued, "Okay it knows where I am but now when or what I am attacking." Then I'd have to go into "Well you can't call what you are attacking, you just attack, since there are no called shots and what not. It will know when you are attacking in the same manner it detected you in the first place, in that, it smells you getting closer or hears you getting closer or feels you getting closer that sort of thing." In which case he if really wants to argue it further I would allow him sneak attack dmg only on the first attack but not on the rest since it would then definitely know you were there, and be on guard for further attacks.

Least, that's what I'd do.

Sneak Attack isn't about attacking opponent without him knowing you're attacking him. It's about attacking opponent while he's unable to properly defend himself. This is why Flanking qualifies you for Sneak Attack as does opponent being denied dexterity bonus to AC.

Sneak Attacks are denied by efficient defense, but opponent in a condition denying Dex-bonus to AC (such as being unable to see opponent's moves and hands and block the hits or roll with them or such) is unable to mount such a defense which is why those abilities qualify you for Sneak Attack; you can easily bypass the opponent's defenses and hit home in the vitals.

[Paulus]

Scent, and blindsense, both still allow the target total concealment. This denies dexterity to AC, and allows sneak attack.

Remember, kids. It's not about whether or not it knows you're there. It's about whether or not it can effectively defend from your blows. If it can't see the dagger inbound, it can't dodge or block it.

What if it smells, feels, or hears the dagger inbound?
Illogical, yet rules as written. And since the Op is asking for RAW, I'll just stop there.

Then you are nerfing nearly every way a rogue gets sneak attack, other than ambush or flank.

Geeze man, I mean for this situation, It's just darkness and a rat. It has scent so it should be able to smell where the person is regardless of sight. Meaning it could indeed move away or attack the threat attacking it. I mean a dire rat may not know how to defend it's vital organs from a sneak attacking rogue but D&D doesn't go in depth to that. All I know is that if the rat knows where you are it should be able to properly defend itself from you whether it can see you or not. Miss chances may indeed be involved, but I don't see why it would be denied dexterity simply because it can't see it's target. For all I know it can hear it and smell it and even taste it.

But that is probably more RAI then RAW and as I said, OP asked for RAW so there you go. I'll bow out now.

Sneak Attack isn't about attacking opponent without him knowing you're attacking him. It's about attacking opponent while he's unable to properly defend himself. This is why Flanking qualifies you for Sneak Attack as does opponent being denied dexterity bonus to AC.

Makes 'sneak attack' sound misleading when you put it that way. Eh, no matter, I'm bowing out. Gave my opinion. There you go.

[Friend Computer]

Geeze man, I mean for this situation, It's just darkness and a rat. It has scent so it should be able to smell where the person is regardless of sight. Meaning it could indeed move away or attack the threat attacking it.

You were correct in this point but nothing else. By determining that there is a hostile, the rat could certainly attack the square the hostile is in, or retreat. But that's it. You can say it is nonsensical all you want, but if you want to depart from the (in)consistency of RAW, you have to contend with IRL. If we go there, I'd like you to try having a little touch-fight with one of your mates while you are blind-folded. I am sure after that you would recognise how much RAW and IRL coincide, in this case. You know where they are, you can hear what 'square' they are in, but you will still be 'flat-footed' against them.

Then for added fun, have everyone blindfolded trying to bash each other. =D

[Lin Bayaseda]

Knowing the square the hostile is on has very limited value. The rat still can't smell the weapon, can't see the weapon coming at it, can't duck it effectively, and is thus denied the dex bonus to AC. Which means the quintessential condition for a sneak attack has been fulfilled.

[Fiery Diamond]

I have a different question about sneak attack.

Does having improved uncanny dodge make you completely immune to all sneak attacks ever unless the attacker is at least 4 rogue levels higher than you or you are helpless/paralyzed/similar? Because you can't be denied your dex bonus unless you are helpless/paralyzed/similar, so no sneak attack from things like invisibility, and you can't be flanked unless the attacker is 4 rogue levels higher, so no sneak attack from flanking.

So, Improved Uncanny Dodge = No sneak attacks on you unless
1) You are helpless/paralyzed/similar or
2) You are flanked by a rogue at least 4 levels higher than you?

[tyckspoon]

You can also get grappled (no Dex against enemies outside the grapple) or hit by other effects and attacks that simply deny Dex without invoking the Flat Footed condition, but yes, Improved Uncanny Dodge will protect you against the most common Sneak Attack triggers.

[ericgrau]

Makes 'sneak attack' sound misleading when you put it that way. Eh, no matter, I'm bowing out. Gave my opinion. There you go.

They should go for broke and change it back to 'back stab'. Then it would be obvious that it isn't meant to make sense. Or, wait, no, I think I'm overestimating people. There's gotta be at least a few that will make an issue about it. And a bunch more that would make fun of WotC for being so stupid with an obviously inaccurate term :rolleyes:. Anyhoo, it's "sneak attack" because "attacking-vital-spot-on-an-opponent-who-is-unable-to-defend-himself-well-enough-to-prevent-this" was too long of a name .

So, Improved Uncanny Dodge = No sneak attacks on you unless
1) You are helpless/paralyzed/similar or
2) You are flanked by a rogue at least 4 levels higher than you?

In theory if you were somehow denied your dexterity without being flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker then you could still be sneak attacked. I believe climbing is one example. Beyond that I can't think of anything.

[Curmudgeon]

I have a different question about sneak attack.

Does having improved uncanny dodge make you completely immune to all sneak attacks ever unless the attacker is at least 4 rogue levels higher than you or you are helpless/paralyzed/similar? Because you can't be denied your dex bonus unless you are helpless/paralyzed/similar

No, this is wrong. You can still be denied your DEX bonus to AC, and there are lots of ways to do so without being immobilized or attacked by someone you don't see. Flat-footed includes being denied DEX bonus to AC, but it's not the same condition; flat-footed also has other limitations.

Just one example: if someone successfully feints you, they can add sneak attack damage on their next attack; uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge don't help you in this situation.