Paladins choice

[hamishspence]

It can be done- but it's a bit different from the standard D&D alignment system.

BoED isn't the only source to suggest slavery and discrimination are evil regardless of whether a particular society (or deity) thinks they are evil or not- Cityscape states pretty much the same thing- stating that no Good-aligned society practices slavery, or systematic discrimination in the law:

(for example, a person murdering a human getting the death penalty, but a person murdering an elf only getting a fine, in a society that practices systematic discrimination against elves)

A Neutral society might, but not a Good one.

It's certainly possible for a paladin's deity to order the paladin to do an Evil act (even Good deities can occasionally do, or order done, evil acts) but this doesn't affect the rules governing the paladin, normally.

So- a Paladin might have a LN deity, live in a LN society where slavery is practiced and the deity does not disapprove of it- but the paladin still has to be LG- so if the paladin actually enslaved another person, they might be in danger of falling, what with PHB's "Evil implies oppressing others" (it also mentions hurting and killing others, but oppression itself could be deemed an evil act.)

About the only place where it's implied that the milder forms of slavery can be tolerated by paladins ruling the society, is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book- Mulhorand is a society that practices slavery, and is ruled by a paladin.

[2xMachina]

... None of your business. There are cops for that. If there are no cops for that, there aren't going to have judge for that either.

Leave and go find some evil guy doing evil to kill. You're not a One Man Army taking on the entire world to fix all problems.

[hamishspence]

Part of Good alignment is being altruistic- if someone is "in need" a Good character should try and help them in some way, if possible.

Now when the someone refuses to admit that they are "in need" its trickier- some people just don't want to be helped.

But it doesn't invalidate the basic precept of Good- "help others who are in need".

... None of your business. There are cops for that. If there are no cops for that, there aren't going to have judge for that either.

Leave and go find some evil guy doing evil to kill. You're not a One Man Army taking on the entire world to fix all problems.

Evil deeds of any kind are the business of all good characters (paladins included)- however, depending on the context, a less violent response to the evil deeds may be appropriate.

[LibraryOgre]

... None of your business. There are cops for that. If there are no cops for that, there aren't going to have judge for that either.

Leave and go find some evil guy doing evil to kill. You're not a One Man Army taking on the entire world to fix all problems.

"All that is needed for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

This doesn't mean you stop chasing a murderer to break up a mugging, or stop saving the world to stop one unjust beat-down... you're one man, and have to prioritize. But stopping a beating, when you have nothing else to do? Ignore that it's domestic violence... it's simply something a good person will intervene in.

A major part of what a paladin does is protect the weak. Make sure that the law is being used for the benefit of all, not their oppression. Violence is sometimes necessary; in this situation, it would probably be best to grapple the guy (grab his arm) rather than run him through with a sword. But just walk off, figuring "It's not my problem"? That's an attitude that leads to a slippery slope of not caring about anything but noble quests.

[Name_Here]

Woman is severaly beaten on the street by her husband. When paladin intervenes, both of them tell him to mind his own business (woman is not intimidated by husband). What does paladin do in order he does not fall? Also, is it ok for him to "confiscate" children in such a family, regarding the "fall" thing?

What action beyond joining in on the wife beating would cause the paladin to fall? Scaring off the husband shouldn't make him fall, beating up the husband shouldn't make him fall, making sure nothing happens until the guards come to sort out the situation shouldn't make him fall. Hell stepping away once they both cool off shouldn't even make him fall, certainly isn't very bright or helpful but not worthy of a fall.

And no I don't think confiscating the children falls under his jurisdiction.

[RagnaroksChosen]

ya know that brings up a good point...

Back in that day did the government even take your children for "abuse" seeing as "parental abuse" realy wasn't even looked at badly untill like the 1900's

[HenryHankovitch]

Indeed, no sane paladin should adventure without one of these...

I'm of the opinion that a paladin who needs to constantly "call Mom" to tell him what to do, ought to end up on his deity's ****-list rather quickly.


But then, that Phylactery is basically metagaming made into artifact form, so it's pretty silly from the get-go.


DM: ...okay, so what do you do?

Player: I consult my Amulet of Metagaming to find out what the DM will let me get away with.

[Telonius]

... None of your business. There are cops for that. If there are no cops for that, there aren't going to have judge for that either.

Leave and go find some evil guy doing evil to kill. You're not a One Man Army taking on the entire world to fix all problems.

I've always thought that's kind of what a Paladin is. He's the marshal that rides in and cleans up town when the local sheriff can't handle it.

[2xMachina]

I'm pretty sure the local sheriff can handle domestic disputes.

So, the Paladin will be off doing something commoners can't handle.

[Gorilla2038]

I'm pretty sure the local sheriff can handle domestic disputes.

So, the Paladin will be off doing something commoners can't handle.

I think you miss the point of a Paladin. There supposed to stop evil. Thats it. Should they take weeks to stop and help these people, when the world is dieing around them? no.

But holding yourself above helping real people, only holding back to save 'the world'? Thats pretty evil. Your saying you hour, day, whatever, is more valuable than either person.

To consider yourself better than everyone else is the start of a easy path of evil.

[Telonius]

I'm pretty sure the local sheriff can handle domestic disputes.

So, the Paladin will be off doing something commoners can't handle.

The local sheriff isn't present; the Paladin is. That's like saying an FBI agent on his coffee break ought to walk by and do nothing if he sees kids throwing rocks at a window.

[LibraryOgre]

The local sheriff isn't present; the Paladin is. That's like saying an FBI agent on his coffee break ought to walk by and do nothing if he sees kids throwing rocks at a window.

Actually, due to different jurisdictions, he probably shouldn't do much more than make a phone call and take some pictures... unless it's a post office, he doesn't have much jurisdiction.

@Ragnaroks_Chosen: Here's my problem... there is no "back in that day" when talking about D&D. Heck, according to Ed Greenwood, the 1350s in the Realms was the same as the 1980s on Earth... he knew because Elminster would come into his kitchen and tell him stories about the Realms. The social mores of D&D's various worlds far more closely mirrors our own than that of the 1300s in Europe. To that end, I find it far more helpful to think of D&D worlds as being equivalent to the late 1800s/early 1900s... the Wild West. On the verge of a lot of breakthroughs (driven by PCs with dreams of Sending-powered Blackberries), with more open acceptance of race and more protective views of children.
In this analogy, the Paladin is more akin to the Lone Ranger. He comes in and solves problems, both those that the local law enforcement can't handle, and those that have festered under the nose of the local law. He solves problems not because the law is incompetent, but because he's there, and he's capable of doing so.

Hi ho, Silver, AWAY!

[hamishspence]

In this analogy, the Paladin is more akin to the Lone Ranger. He comes in and solves problems, both those that the local law enforcement can't handle, and those that have festered under the nose of the local law. He solves problems not because the law is incompetent, but because he's there, and he's capable of doing so.

Hi ho, Silver, AWAY!

I like this one.

I thought Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar were rather paladinlike- they have powers, they get a steed of celestial origin (even if most of the present-day ones are born on the Material Plane) they judge those accused of being evildoers, defend people from bandits, on rare occasions fight marauding monsters, and so on.

And if they become corrupt- their steed will reject them.

Heralds aren't nearly as uptight as paladins tend to be portrayed though.

[LibraryOgre]

I like this one.

I thought Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar were rather paladinlike- they have powers, they get a steed of celestial origin (even if most of the present-day ones are born on the Material Plane) they judge those accused of being evildoers, defend people from bandits, on rare occasions fight marauding monsters, and so on.

And if they become corrupt- their steed will reject them.

Heralds aren't nearly as uptight as paladins tend to be portrayed though.

Which, IMO, is a big part of it. Heralds are probably G-only, rather than LG-only (q.v. Skif; while he's an agent of Valdemar, he is still a thief, and quite often a thief in Valdemar's service), but they have a lot in common with paladins.

[Name_Here]

I'm of the opinion that a paladin who needs to constantly "call Mom" to tell him what to do, ought to end up on his deity's ****-list rather quickly.


But then, that Phylactery is basically metagaming made into artifact form, so it's pretty silly from the get-go.


DM: ...okay, so what do you do?

Player: I consult my Amulet of Metagaming to find out what the DM will let me get away with.

I think it's a necessary evil due to the absurd overuse of fall by GMs who dislike paladins and want to punish anybody playing one or GMs who hold the paladins to levels of righteousness far beyond absurd.

Without it the paladins are basically walking a tightrope in the dark without a net and something cutting through the rope.

[hamishspence]

Heralds are probably G-only, rather than LG-only (q.v. Skif; while he's an agent of Valdemar, he is still a thief, and quite often a thief in Valdemar's service), but they have a lot in common with paladins.

Yes- their mounts are also (in some cases) a bit more forgiving of evil acts- it takes a lot to get a complete repuditation.

In the Mage Winds trilogy (Winds of Fate, Winds of Change, Winds of Fury) Skif mentions the revenge he took on a villain, to one of the Hawkbrothers. And its clear that while Skiv's Companion disapproved, she didn't reject him, or report him, either.

The Hawkbrother's response:

"I learned this lesson when I was a little older than you, now- when I visited similar retribution on a very stupid bandit who had been tormenting hertasi and killing them for their hides. It does no good to visit torments on a creature of that nature. It teaches him nothing, and makes your nature closer to his. And that is why you are troubled, Wingbrother. You knew this all along, did you not?"

"What was done, was done in the heat of anger, and in the heat of anger, one loses perspective- and sanity. Now you are sane- and sickened. Do not forget the lesson, Wingbrother- but do not let it eat at you like a disease. Let it go, and learn from it."

"Others will forgive you this, Wingbrother, but only you can forgive yourself. You must never, never forget."

"Although you feel relief now, this is likely to be the source of many sleepless nights for you. You will lie awake, look at your heart, and find it unlovely. You will be certain that, regardless of what I have said, you are the greatest of monsters. This is a good thing; although you may forgive yourself, you must never come to think that your actions were in any way justifiable. But-" (he chuckled ironically) "As Iceshadow told me, being a sane, honorable human being is not always comfortable."

[Agrippa]

Okay hamish, what's so bad about seeking retribution against those who harmed or still harm innocent people, especially if they lack remorse for their cirmes? Isn't that part of the job of a paladin, to punish the irredeemably wicked? At least give me some context.

[hamishspence]

Context was- he did what to the villain what was done to the villain's victims- tortured him to death.

The recommendation given was to kill villains cleanly-

"it does no good to visit torments on a creature of that nature"

[2xMachina]

Actually, due to different jurisdictions, he probably shouldn't do much more than make a phone call and take some pictures... unless it's a post office, he doesn't have much jurisdiction.

Well, Paladin jurisdiction are iffy (he probably can intervene. The local law probably doesn't care that he does though)

So, yes. Call the cops and go do something important.

The most I'd do is Lay on Hand/Cure them, tell them to work it out, and do something important.

[LibraryOgre]

Well, Paladin jurisdiction are iffy (he probably can intervene. The local law probably doesn't care that he does though)

So, yes. Call the cops and go do something important.

The most I'd do is Lay on Hand/Cure them, tell them to work it out, and do something important.

<Yoda>And that is why you fall</Yoda>

Seriously, though, the FBI agent is a separate case from a Paladin; the US has some fairly well-defined and separate jurisdictions that D&Dland usually lacks. A paladin who dismisses things like this as "not important" is likely walking on Miko's edge.

I probably wouldn't include this in a game, mind you... it's not the sort of things that most adventurers are going to find fascinating. But Paladins aren't most adventurers.

[Kish]

Paladins fall if they do something evil. Not something illegal, not something a deity disapproves of. "Walk away because you don't know if he's breaking the law" is not a good answer.

[2xMachina]

It's not really not important, as not your business.
The most I'd do is offer counseling/help, which I would not press on them.

What would you do? Whack them until they agree to stop fighting? Take their children to some foster home, and hope they won't miss Mom and Dad?

[Coidzor]

^: Well, there is a reason why every paladin should carry some sort of merciful weapon/sap.

So, yes, if in his attempts to intervene one or both attacks like maddened wolverines and he didn't have a calm emotions to burn on it anyway, the correct course of action is to beat the attacker into submission/unconsciousness, even if there's not a whole lot an unarmed commoner can do to a paladin in armor.

It gives the little people some perspective, especially when they wake up and realize how easily the paladin could have just slain them instead.

Considering he doesn't know if they even have children and all he knows is that some woman is being beaten by her husband in the public street, he doesn't need to consider what to do with the children until it comes up as his knowledge of the situation increases via investigation and interaction with it.

[hamishspence]

Only once the fight is over, might "not your business" come into play.

And even then- paladin should warn them- maybe tip off the local authorities to keep an eye on the offender.

However, when interfering between two people fighting (when one is clearly the aggressor) the paladin should still use as little force as necessary.

[LibraryOgre]

It's not really not important, as not your business.
The most I'd do is offer counseling/help, which I would not press on them.

What would you do? Whack them until they agree to stop fighting? Take their children to some foster home, and hope they won't miss Mom and Dad?

Were I a paladin, in the situation we have? Grapple the clear aggressor to force him to stop. Separate them as much as possible, heal as necessary. Find at least a temporary solution to the problem (i.e. put the husband up in a hotel for the night to cool down). Recommend the two of them to a local organization that deals with this sort of thing (usually a temple).

Taking the kids is an in extremis response. If you're at the stage where you think the kids need to be taken out of the home, you're probably also at the point where you can take the aggressor to prison, or, perhaps, a monastery (prison might not care, but a temple where he could work off his aggression isn't unheard of).

[Solarn]

It's not really not important, as not your business.
The most I'd do is offer counseling/help, which I would not press on them.

What would you do? Whack them until they agree to stop fighting? Take their children to some foster home, and hope they won't miss Mom and Dad?

Problem is, for Paladins, there's no such thing as "not my business". Their business is making everybody else's business their business.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much- a paladin's job is to stop evil acts if they witness ones in progress- however minor.

Severely beating someone up without justification (such as self-defense), would probably fall into the category of evil acts.

[Agrippa]

Context was- he did what to the villain what was done to the villain's victims- tortured him to death.

The recommendation given was to kill villains cleanly-

"it does no good to visit torments on a creature of that nature"

Then you should have said that. Otherwise pay evil unto evil.

[Apollo1776]

Paladins don't instantly go slay evil willy-nilly either. They might hate evil, but they don't *detect evil* AHA! KILL KILL! (though I think that all the time)

Take my character for a spin. He was in a gathering of nobles to discuss whether a dragon slayer who illegally built a keep should be given the title of noble and be absolved of his crimes. I of course, was on this man's side. He broke they law, but was tremendously helpful in our search for dragon's blood to help cure the king of lethal and potent poison.
There was a noble who opposed him becoming a noble - and this man was evil (detect evil ftw, but you didn't have to do that to tell, he was a jerk). Despite that I could not so much as brandish my sword because the noble was within the bounds of the law. Lawful evil is such a bitch.

Paladins are not neutral good. They cannot whimsically break laws or see them broken without having serious thoughts about the matter. What does the law dictate, and what is good? The law says the man was assaulting the woman (and as a paladin upholding your code you had to step in). As a good character you would try to find a solution that avoids punishment to them. There's your answer.

How you go about this depends on your character's personality and what you want to do as far as that.

[Kish]

What does the law dictate, and what is good? The law says the man was assaulting the woman (and as a paladin upholding your code you had to step in). As a good character you would try to find a solution that avoids punishment to them.

What? Why in the world?