Another Thread About Messing With Spell Schools (3.5)

[ScionoftheVoid]

This thread is about what you would move around in spell schools, or what you would change about them in general. My personal changes:

• To increase the effectiveness of Enchantment, Mind-affecting spells do effect Mindless or otherwise immune creatures, but offer a save every round except the first in addition to the spell's normal save(s), this additional save is granted on the turn of the creature affected (this means that a Mindless creature as the target of Hold Monster recieves one save on the turn of casting and one save every turn until the effect is ended for free, and can spend a full-round action to gain another save as normal). If the spell lasts for only one round or is a Phantasm the creature is immune as normal. E.g. Daze will not work against a Mindless creature, but something like an appropriate Dominate will. (I may add a -5 penalty to the spell DC as well when used against a normally immune creature)Plants, Constructs and Undead remain completely immune to Mind-affecting abilities unless they have an Intelligence score, in which case they are affected as above. You can Dominate a Vampire right back at them, but not so for an Iron Golem.

• All spells in the Teleportation subschool are Evocation effects. It can still be replaced by (Greater) Shadow Evocation, but dropping it becomes a worse idea for specialists. Weakens Conjuration slightly as a side benefit.

• All spells in the Healing subschool are Necromancy. They act on life energy, are for the most part on the Divine lists making it less important, and moves some power from one of the best schools (Conjuration) to one in the bottom three (Necromancy).

• Transmutation spells which effect the mind or mental stats of a creature whilst not also changing it physically (including Owl's Wisdom and the like, excluding Polymorph Any Object) become Enchantment, bulking up the smallest of the schools and taking from one of the best schools. Tenser's Transformation, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendour, Owl's Wisdom (and their Mass euqivalents) and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer are the Core spells effected, though other spells may be included as necessary outside of Core. (I was thinking about moving the Fear spells from Necromancy, too but it might be a bit much)

• (I thought about moving all spells with the Force descriptor into Evocation, but that would weaken Abjuration (school to drop before Illusion and arguably instead of Necromancy) and Conjuration (which has been stripped of Healing and Teleportation spells already). Moving all into Abjuration would weaken Evocation again and putting them in Conjuration would be counterproductive, so I'll leave them as-is for now).

Note that all of the above are meant to even up the spell schools slightly with the minimum of effort and maximum of fluff-based sense. Evocation is one of the weakest schools but I'm still not going to give it the Polymorph line, it just doesn't mesh with the flavour of the Evocation school. Adjustments are in purple.

Comments, advice and your own houseruled adjustments are welcome.

This is my fourth thread, I hope it goes better than my first (locked) and second (no replies).

[Yora]

I agree with the minor changes:

There's no reason that cure spells are not necromancy.
Foxes Cunning, Owls Wisdom, and Eagles Splendor are clearly Enchantment and not Transmutation.
And making all force effects Evocation makes completely sense.

But the point of a creature being mindless is, that there isn't anything to enchant, so I wouldn't change that.
And teleportation seems at the right place in Conjuration.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I agree with the minor changes:

There's no reason that cure spells are not necromancy.
Foxes Cunning, Owls Wisdom, and Eagles Splendor are clearly Enchantment and not Transmutation.
And making all force effects Evocation makes completely sense.

But the point of a creature being mindless is, that there isn't anything to enchant, so I wouldn't change that.
And teleportation seems at the right place in Conjuration.

Most Mindless creatures are still directed by something. Vermin, Oozes, Undead, Constructs and Elementals are all guided by something or other. A very weak brain in the case of Vermin, something similar in Oozes and Elementals, Constructs and Undead are sometimes sapient. I'll give you Plants, I'm not sure that their acting via anything other than "built-in" reactions. Some things (e.g. Hold Person, Dominate Person) are more hijacking the creatures nervous system or other pathways of instructions, so I think they should be allowed past Mindless immunity. Mostly the Mind-affecting and Mindless tags are there for simplicity, like in the case of Vermin (Int lower than animals, which puts it at "-", which is Mindless). I'll edit it slightly, I think.

I feel that Evocation is more suited for instant effects, Conjuration for more lasting things. Evocation with spells to take things from one place to another for a matter of moments, or irreversibly (most damage spells, teleportation effects, respectively). Conjuration for things which last, or are created by magic before becoming non-magical and permanent (summoning and calling, instantaneous creation effects, respectively.

You think I should implement all Force effects as being Evocation? It's currently only a suggestion that I'm not sure about.

Thanks for the response, I'll go back to add some more the Enchantment entry.

[Zeful]

I'd also include:

Move all spells in Conjuration (Creation) that target creatures into Evocation. This fixes a big problem with both schools, which can be summarized as "Everything Evocation does, Conjuration does better. Doubly so with the Creation subschool."

Further I'd change the Creation subschool so that it can only create substances (Acid, Water, Earth, etc.) so that there are no spells with the [Fire], [Electricity], [Sonic] and maybe [Force] descriptors anywhere in the school. Any such spells (that weren't moved to Evocation) are now part of the (Calling) subschool.

[Fiery Diamond]

The reason I think that the Teleport line fits with Conjuration is that Calling and Teleport subschools are actually very similar. With Calling, you bring a creature from elsewhere to your location. With Teleport, you bring yourself (and/or others) from your location to elsewhere. There are of course other differences, but you can see the similarity.

I honestly never understood why all of the protective force effects (mage armor, shield, etc.) weren't all in abjuration.

Edit: Also, Elementals are usually not mindless.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'd also include:

Move all spells in Conjuration (Creation) that target creatures into Evocation. This fixes a big problem with both schools, which can be summarized as "Everything Evocation does, Conjuration does better. Doubly so with the Creation subschool."

Further I'd change the Creation subschool so that it can only create substances (Acid, Water, Earth, etc.) so that there are no spells with the [Fire], [Electricity], [Sonic] and maybe [Force] descriptors anywhere in the school. Any such spells (that weren't moved to Evocation) are now part of the (Calling) subschool.

I might do this, but on a case-by-case basis. Acid damage is Conjurations thing, but I could see moving Orb of Fire/Cold/Force/Sound into Evocation. I might move all Force stuff into Abjuration with this actually, Evocation is quickly becoming bloated. On the other hand, Conjuration is emptying faster than a village under attack by a Balor, so I could dump them all there. Suggestions?

Any other thoughts on where I should put Force spells and the Teleportation thing?

Edit:@^ They aren't? Must have been thinking of creatures immune to SA/Crits. The lists are very similar.

[QuantumSteve]

To increase the effectiveness of Enchantment, Mind-affecting spells do effect Mindless or otherwise immune creatures, but offer a save every round except the first in addition to the spell's normal save(s), this additional save is granted on the turn of the creature affected (this means that a Mindless creature as the target of Hold Monster recieves one save on the turn of casting and one save every turn until the effect is ended for free, and can spend a full-round action to gain another save as normal). If the spell lasts for only one round or is a Phantasm the creature is immune as normal. E.g. Daze will not work against a Mindless creature, but something like an appropriate Dominate will. (I may add a -5 penalty to the spell DC as well when used against a normally immune creature)

Enchantment inherent weakness is that it's all Mind-Affecting spells, and that's really it's nature. New spells help it a lot, but it will always have that weakness. Casting Crushing Despair on an Animated Object? (It's an Emo Candlestick)

All spells in the Teleportation subschool are Evocation effects. It can still be replaced by (Greater) Shadow Evocation, but dropping it becomes a worse idea for specialists. Weakens Conjuration slightly as a side benefit.

Ever since the Orb spells stole what little thunder Evocation had, I've had a beef with Conjuration, but Teleport seems right for Conj. I would like to see Evoc steal back some of it's old school spells. Little ditties like Web and Cloudkill and Wall of Stone.

All spells in the Healing subschool are Necromancy. They act on life energy, are for the most part on the Divine lists making it less important, and moves some power from one of the best schools (Conjuration) to one in the bottom three (Necromancy).

Woot! This!

Transmutation spells which effect the mind or mental stats of a creature whilst not also changing it physically (including Owl's Wisdom and the like, excluding Polymorph Any Object) become Enchantment, bulking up the smallest of the schools and taking from one of the best schools. Tenser's Transformation, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendour, Owl's Wisdom (and their Mass euqivalents) and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer are the Core spells effected, though other spells may be included as necessary outside of Core. (I was thinking about moving the Fear spells from Necromancy, too but it might be a bit much)

I can see how keeping all the stat boosting spells together makes sense how it is, I can also see how the could be enchantments, too. Tenser's Transformation, however, is a purely physical boosting transformation. I just can't see it in Enchantment

(I thought about moving all spells with the Force descriptor into Evocation, but that would weaken Abjuration (school to drop before Illusion and arguably instead of Necromancy) and Conjuration (which has been stripped of Healing and Teleportation spells already). Moving all into Abjuration would weaken Evocation again and putting them in Conjuration would be counterproductive, so I'll leave them as-is for now).

Nearly all core force spells are in Evocation already. Shield actually was once in Evoc, and I always thought Mage Armor should be in Abjuration.

[Optimystik]

I like "Anything with an Int score is subject to Enchantment." It makes perfect sense, and gives Enchanters a boost.

I'm also fine with "Conjurations that target things are Evocations."

Putting healing in Necromancy might remove some of the stigma from the school as well.

[Dr Bwaa]

Mage Armor absolutely ought to be an Abjuration (the people who wrote CM certainly thought so... Looking at you, Abj Champ).

Also, Spectral Hand should be Conjuration rather than Necromancy, IMO. Along that line, the healing spells should all be Necromancy (by the Gods, making inflict spells not in the same school as cure spells... what were they thinking?!?!).

EDIT: yar, ninjas...

[Lysander]

My big one is moving mage hand, telekinesis, fly, overland flight, and other similar spells that impart motion to evocation away from transmutation. You're imparting a force to make things move rather than changing their structure in any way. Wizards would be less likely to ban evocation if it meant no flying for them.

[erikun]

I can't help but feeling that healing in Necromancy is nothing more than flavor. After all, the primary concern of magic schools is for wizard specialization, and wizards don't learn healing spells anyways. I have never heard of healing being one of the benifits to Conjuration, beyond Summon Monster > Unicorn > Heal.

I agree that anything with an INT score should be vulnerable to Enchantment. Perhaps a bonus, such as adding Turn Resistance to saves against Enchantment, but if you have a mind you should be vulnerable to mind-affecting effects.

I'm not sure about putting Teleport into Evocation. If anything, it should be a general spell. I don't think teleportation when I see energy being thrown around. On the other hand, most of the blasty Conjuration spells deserve to be moved into Evocation. I prefer to see stuff like Wall of Stone or Stone to Flesh there also, turning it into more of an Elementalism school.

No comment on the mental Transformation spells into Enchantment, although it would make sense.

Yes, Mage's Armor would make more sense as Abjuration than Evocation.

[Optimystik]

My big one is moving mage hand, telekinesis, fly, overland flight, and other similar spells that impart motion to evocation away from transmutation. You're imparting a force to make things move rather than changing their structure in any way. Wizards would be less likely to ban evocation if it meant no flying for them.

They would probably just fly with Alter Self instead if you did that.

[Lysander]

They would probably just fly with Alter Self instead if you did that.

That's fine. It's ok having more than one method of achieving flight. But anything that creates motion from nothing should be evocation. Besides, winged flight isn't quite as good.

[QuantumSteve]

I'm going to go ahead and agree that aside from a few special exceptions, non-mindless creatures shouldn't get blanket immunity from mind-affecting effects.

[Lysander]

I'm going to go ahead and agree that aside from a few special exceptions, non-mindless creatures shouldn't get blanket immunity from mind-affecting effects.

I suppose the reason why undead get immunity to mind-affecting spells is that they're instead controlled by turn undead/control undead. You'd be taking away necromancy's thunder if dominate person worked on vampires. Maybe they should have called it "brain-affecting" instead of mind-affecting.

[Zeful]

I might do this, but on a case-by-case basis. Acid damage is Conjurations thing, but I could see moving Orb of Fire/Cold/Force/Sound into Evocation. I might move all Force stuff into Abjuration with this actually, Evocation is quickly becoming bloated. On the other hand, Conjuration is emptying faster than a village under attack by a Balor, so I could dump them all there. Suggestions?

True it is, but I have a problem moreso with the (Creation) subschool than with Conjurations in general. Moving all Conjurations that just targets specific creatures under Evocation allows for conjuration to be the guy that hits large areas with acidic fog or create rocks to drop on the enemy, or similar effects.

Any other thoughts on where I should put Force spells and the Teleportation thing?

Teleport should stay with Conjuration as sort of the "reverse Calling". That much makes a lot of sense. It also gives Conjuration something big to hold on to so no one can simply drop it.

[Kobold-Bard]

Just skimmed it, but on Healing = Necromancy. I approve of this, but I but Cure/Inflict spells in Evocation. You are channeling energy straight from an Inner Plane and pumping it into a target. This might just be me (and whoever first suggested it when I stole it), but I see that as an Evocation effect.

Of course feel free to ignore my ramblings.

[Zeful]

Meh, there are a couple of ways to do it. Putting Curing spells in Necromancy or Evocation makes sense. But you could also let them be Conjuration (Calling) and have it draw energy directly from the Positive Energy plane.

[Kobold-Bard]

Meh, there are a couple of ways to do it. Putting Curing spells in Necromancy or Evocation makes sense. But you could also let them be Conjuration (Calling) and have it draw energy directly from the Positive Energy plane.

I see Conjuration spells as creating things you can't manipulate. They're just there. But that's just me obviously.

[QuantumSteve]

I suppose the reason why undead get immunity to mind-affecting spells is that they're instead controlled by turn undead/control undead. You'd be taking away necromancy's thunder if dominate person worked on vampires. Maybe they should have called it "brain-affecting" instead of mind-affecting.

How would dominate person interact on a subject that's already dominated?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

• To increase the effectiveness of Enchantment, Mind-affecting spells do effect Mindless or otherwise immune creatures, but offer a save every round except the first in addition to the spell's normal save(s), this additional save is granted on the turn of the creature affected (this means that a Mindless creature as the target of Hold Monster recieves one save on the turn of casting and one save every turn until the effect is ended for free, and can spend a full-round action to gain another save as normal). If the spell lasts for only one round or is a Phantasm the creature is immune as normal. E.g. Daze will not work against a Mindless creature, but something like an appropriate Dominate will. (I may add a -5 penalty to the spell DC as well when used against a normally immune creature)Plants, Constructs and Undead remain completely immune to Mind-affecting abilities unless they have an Intelligence score, in which case they are affected as above. You can Dominate a Vampire right back at them, but not so for an Iron Golem.

This helps out a little bit, but even one round of some spells can be enough for something like Death Urge to come into play. Eh.

• All spells in the Teleportation subschool are Evocation effects. It can still be replaced by (Greater) Shadow Evocation, but dropping it becomes a worse idea for specialists. Weakens Conjuration slightly as a side benefit.

This is good for Evocation, but even the presence of Shadow Evocation is enough for most casters to go "meh" and just wait a few levels.

• All spells in the Healing subschool are Necromancy. They act on life energy, are for the most part on the Divine lists making it less important, and moves some power from one of the best schools (Conjuration) to one in the bottom three (Necromancy).

This actually does somewhere between "jack" and "squat" as the only people who care about conjuration (healing) are people who can't ban necromancy anyhow. It's a non-issue.

• Transmutation spells which effect the mind or mental stats of a creature whilst not also changing it physically (including Owl's Wisdom and the like, excluding Polymorph Any Object) become Enchantment, bulking up the smallest of the schools and taking from one of the best schools. Tenser's Transformation, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendour, Owl's Wisdom (and their Mass euqivalents) and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer are the Core spells effected, though other spells may be included as necessary outside of Core. (I was thinking about moving the Fear spells from Necromancy, too but it might be a bit much)

This becomes a little tricky, to me, personally, at least, due to the fact that Transformation strongly boosts physical power: it just prevents casting. As such, it looks good on paper, but requires some more work to it than what you just described.



Largely I don't bother with houseruling any of this because I'm lazy. My advice is above, so, yeah.