Need help with a monk

[Zen Master]

Background: We're a group of four players, and the classes are a ranger (tamer), a druid (summoner), a sorceror and a monk.

The ranger (that's me) and the druid are fairly optimized within their specialisations. The sorcerer will be fine. But the monk might take some work. The players doesn't really know or care about the rules - yet we cannot have him feeling useless in or out of combat.

Oh - and btw, we're all halflings.

What I need are valid tactics, feats and possibly (prestige) class combinations that will make this monk worthwhile for my friend. For feats, any source is good - but for prestige classes, I simply don't have most of the possible books. For books, core, psionics handbook and eberron material is fine. The rest I wont have access to.

Oh, and somewhere online there's this great list of all feats? Only I can't find it. If anyone has the link, I'd appreciate it =)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consolidated List Archive

Your best/easiest course of action would be to have him make an Unarmed Swordsage and just call it a Monk.

[Melayl]

For the list of feats (and alot of PrC's and other neat stuff), you'll want Crystal Keep. {Scrubbed. Please don't link to sites that provide full text of copyrighted material without permission of the copyright holder.}, which Aethir was kind enough to find for me earlier, has a great number of feats and other goodies as well.

As for Monk builds, I believe there are a few (or more) guides here -- just search in the roleplaying section. Brilliant Gameologists has some as well, I think.

[gorfnab]

yet we cannot have him feeling useless in or out of combat.

Well, that does define the monk class.

I would first suggest the Monk's Handbook and looking into the Halfling Monk variant from Races of the Wild. Otherwise as mentioned before, Unarmed Swordsage is a much better way to go.

[Eldariel]

Honestly? Small-sized Monk with Str-penalty isn't going to make a terrific Grappler, Tripper, Damage Dealer or any such. He can get 'em decent AC and pump Stunning Fist DC and never do anything but Stunning Fist and just plain attack people; seems for the best, but that's very limited, somewhat unreliable and completely useless against many opponents. However, with Eberron though, Secrets of Sarlona contains "Tashalatora" which enables the wonderful Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 (with Tashalatora advancing the Monk class features).

Now, being small means Expansion is not all that amazing, but you still end up with a laundry list of wonderful ways to buff the unarmed strikes (Precognitions and Presciences, Venom, Strength of My Enemy, Metaphysical X, etc.) and all-around useful stuff (Psionic Lion's Charge, Hustle, Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Flight, etc.). Best of all, it all makes perfect sense on a Monk; the kind of meditation and monastic training is exactly what empowers a psionic character.


So yeah, I suggest Tashalatora Monk/Psychic Warrior.

[AslanCross]

Well, that does define the monk class.

I would first suggest the Monk's Handbook and looking into the Halfling Monk variant from Races of the Wild. Otherwise as mentioned before, Unarmed Swordsage is a much better way to go.

He already said ToB is out.

Like Eldariel, I suggest the Tashalatora.

[Kaiyanwang]

Just to throw in: what kind of campaign is it? Are there a lot of critters immune to stun?

Could we build a sort of stunner/skirmisher?

Snapkick + Rapid stunning..+ feat reducing MADness like intuitive attack..

Alternatively, dodge mobility adding elusive target + sidestep.. at high levels bounding assault.

You can rapidstun on full attacks, or run, stun, and avoid retaliatory attacks, or at least mitigate them. Trying to throw in giant-killing feats.. in CW and RoTW...

At high levels, bounding assault and Pimp tumble to reach 40 as soon as possible

[Math_Mage]

He already said ToB is out.

Like Eldariel, I suggest the Tashalatora.

In that case, I doubt Secrets of Sarlona will be given more leeway. Looking at the party, this seems very much a Core group.

[Eldariel]

In that case, I doubt Secrets of Sarlona will be given more leeway. Looking at the party, this seems very much a Core group.

I wonder...

For books, core, psionics handbook and eberron material is fine. The rest I wont have access to.

[Math_Mage]

Bah, curse my lazy reading. Won't find better than that, then.

[Kurald Galain]

Otherwise as mentioned before, Unarmed Swordsage is a much better way to go.

Heck, in a pinch, play an unarmed fighter and call it a monk. For starters, you'll get better BAB and hit points, and plenty more feats.

[Zen Master]

He already said ToB is out.

Like Eldariel, I suggest the Tashalatora.

Well ... nothing is out, as such. Only I don't have it. We have all the eberron books though.

[Zen Master]

Just to throw in: what kind of campaign is it? Are there a lot of critters immune to stun?

Could we build a sort of stunner/skirmisher?

Snapkick + Rapid stunning..+ feat reducing MADness like intuitive attack..

Alternatively, dodge mobility adding elusive target + sidestep.. at high levels bounding assault.

You can rapidstun on full attacks, or run, stun, and avoid retaliatory attacks, or at least mitigate them. Trying to throw in giant-killing feats.. in CW and RoTW...

At high levels, bounding assault and Pimp tumble to reach 40 as soon as possible

I honestly don't know the campaign yet - but if I know the DM (and I do) then there wont be endless hordes of undead or constructs.

Stunner/skirmisher sounds exactly right. Not the only option - but definitely high on the list.

Kick and stun plus something to reduce MAD would also be very welcome.

Giant killing feats appears to be in books we don't have. We might get them though, if it sounds promising enough.

Also, it seems I forgot to mention in the first post: We're currently level 3.

[Keld Denar]

Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona, an Eberron book. Monastic Training, the prereq, is in the Eberron Campaign Setting, another Eberron book. PsyWar is in the SRD. Thats golden.

If you were Strongheart Halfling, you could go:

Monk1 Abberant Blood (Flexible Limbs) (LoMadness), Inhuman Reach (LoMadness), Imp Grapple
Monk2 Monastic Training(PsyWar)
PsyWar1 Tashalatora (SoSarlona), Practiced Manifestor

Funny thing would be, you are normally a small person, but you have 10' reach, and can do decently at grappling. From there:

PsyWar2 Link Power (CompPsi)
PsyWar3
PsyWar4 Deepspawn (LoMadness)

Now, with Grip of Iron, Expansion, Imp Grapple, and the +4 unnamed from Flexible Limbs + Deepspawn, you'll be looking at a grapple mod of +15 or so. Thats decent to grab anything medium sized or smaller. You won't be the worlds most amazing grappler, but it'll be fun.

Plus, EVERYTHING is better with tenticles...

[Kaiyanwang]

IIRC, all the things I suggested are in crystalkeep, barring Snapkick that is in tome of battle.

Intuitive Attack is in BoED.

Rapid Stunning is in Complete Warrior

Dodge, Mobility ( try to get 'em through items ASAP) are in PH. Spring Attack is PH too.

Bounding Assault is PH II

Underfoot Combat is RotW but use it just as a combo with Giantbane (Complete Warrior). Consider that Giantbane is IMHO made for Sneak Attackers, maybe combined with staggering strike.*

Elusive target is Complete Warrior

Sidestep is Miniature handbook. In crystalkeep there is another one similar, from dragon magazine. I guess if they do stack, but I think that you'll need for sure dodge and mobility from items, and a flaw or two

Remember, such character is not suitable for every campaign, but in someone could be fun, I guess.

Finally, later in the campaign, try to obtain a dip in swordsage from your DM because Setting Sun is really a lot in the line of the tricks above. I guess they can be combined nicely.




* alternatively, try to multiclass with rogue, if suitable. I ask: are there monk/rogue multiclass feats? Use rules from UA (and SRD IIRC) for fractional BAB.

[Telonius]

Further question for the OP - what is the Monk player intending/expecting the Monk to be able to do? Does he see him as more of a frontline fighter, or a grappler, or something else altogether? To the character, what kind of a person is he? Monastery religious guy, or more of an arcane/psionic flavor to it, or just going within the self to find perfection? There are a couple different ways you can go about building him, depending on the answers to those.

[Eloel]

You should look into the monk sub levels that I believe are in RotW. They give Skirmish like Scout instead of Flurry of Misses. Good trade.

Then add to that a way to pounce or 10ft step (tumble DC40, Unapproachable East), and you're ready to go.

[Kylarra]

You should look into the monk sub levels that I believe are in RotW. They give Skirmish like Scout instead of Flurry of Misses. Good trade.

Then add to that a way to pounce or 10ft step (tumble DC40, Unapproachable East), and you're ready to go.

it also gives you 6+int skillpoints which is nice.

[Prime32]

Further question for the OP - what is the Monk player intending/expecting the Monk to be able to do? Does he see him as more of a frontline fighter, or a grappler, or something else altogether? To the character, what kind of a person is he? Monastery religious guy, or more of an arcane/psionic flavor to it, or just going within the self to find perfection? There are a couple different ways you can go about building him, depending on the answers to those.

I second this. I recall one thread where someone wanted to build a spellcasting monk using only the monk class.

[Sinfire Titan]

I second this. I recall one thread where someone wanted to build a spellcasting monk using only the monk class.

That was Giacomo's UMD Monk, Prime.




Really, have him play a Druid before Monk, and reflavor it to be a Monk. With Mortal Kombat-style Beastiality kills.

[Zen Master]

Further question for the OP - what is the Monk player intending/expecting the Monk to be able to do? Does he see him as more of a frontline fighter, or a grappler, or something else altogether? To the character, what kind of a person is he? Monastery religious guy, or more of an arcane/psionic flavor to it, or just going within the self to find perfection? There are a couple different ways you can go about building him, depending on the answers to those.

What he has said is that he wants to be able to subdue or control one opponent in combat. That means grabbling, tripping, stunning or otherwise hindering - but I doubt he will find that amusing for too many levels.

So I'm thinking we need two things: To give him what he has stated he wants, and to give him what he really wants, which is to not subdue but also eliminate enemies.

His mental image of this character is a real martial artist. Sort of Kung Fu, Yedi knight (without the mind control), zen kinda character.

[Prime32]

That was Giacomo's UMD Monk, Prime.

No, there was another thread with someone fixed on the idea of the western monk.

His mental image of this character is a real martial artist. Sort of Kung Fu, Yedi knight (without the mind control), zen kinda character.

Well, that doesn't really mean much. You can say "I hit him with my sword" or "I use the the Dragon Crescent Rush technique", it's all flavour.

[Zen Master]

Well, that doesn't really mean much. You can say "I hit him with my sword" or "I use the the Dragon Crescent Rush technique", it's all flavour.

Yup - but he wants to do it with the actual monk class. There in lies the trouble. That, and us playing halflings. His choice sets limits I cannot easily defeat myself. Of course, if this board also cannot, I can safely assume the problem cannot be solved.

I'd settle for a feat or class feature that allowed him to trip/grapple/knockdown/bullrush as if one size category larger + a weapon, enchantment or similar that gave an additional bonus. So that he'd be at least par with a random human city guard.

On top of that, something to boost damage would be nice. And possibly a good mobility trick - like up the walls (the psionic feat) only I kinda doubt he wants to mess with psionics.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Could a psiwarrior be the real solution for him? Hmf - I just know he hates managing details - like psp and stuff.

Difficult.

[Prime32]

What if you present him with another class and say it's called monk, that D&D has more than one monk class? Or even that it's the new monk class and he was looking at the old version?

Or heck, you could even gestalt.

Copy the data from the SRD on the psychic warrior into a word document, replace power with "technique", power points with "ki points", etc. Rename some of the powers so they sound kungfu-ish. Print it out.

EDIT: Let's look at the psionic feats.

Spoiler

Show

*
o Aligned Attack
o Boost Construct
o Combat Manifestation
o Expanded Knowledge
o Focused Sunder
o Ghost Attack
o Inquisitor
o Mental Leap
o Metamorphic Transfer
o Narrow Mind
o Overchannel
+ Talented
+ Body Fuel
o Power Penetration
+ Greater Power Penetration
o Power Specialization
+ Greater Power Specialization
o Psicrystal Affinity
+ Improved Psicrystal
+ Psicrystal Containment

*

o Psionic Body
o Psionic Dodge
o Psionic Endowment
+ Greater Psionic Endowment
o Psionic Fist
+ Greater Psionic Fist
+ Unavoidable Strike
o Psionic Meditation
o Psionic Shot
+ Greater Psionic Shot
+ Fell Shot
+ Return Shot
o Psionic Talent
o Psionic Weapon
+ Greater Psionic Weapon
+ Deep Impact
o Speed Of Thought
+ Psionic Charge
o Up The Walls
o Wounding Attack

Change that to

Spoiler

Show

*
o Aligned Attack
o Boost Construct
o Combat Manifestation
o Expanded Knowledge
o Focused Sunder
o Ghost Attack
o Inquisitor
o Mystic Leap
o Metamorphic Transfer
o Narrow Mind
o Oversoul
+ Talented
+ Body Fuel
o Ki Penetration
+ Greater Ki Penetration
o Ki Specialization
+ Greater Ki Specialization
o Soulcrystal Affinity
+ Improved Soulcrystal
+ Soulcrystal Containment

*

o Ki Body
o Ki Dodge
o Ki Endowment
+ Greater Ki Endowment
o Ki Fist
+ Greater Ki Fist
+ Unavoidable Strike
o Ki Meditation
o Ki Shot
+ Greater Ki Shot
+ Fell Shot
+ Return Shot
o Ki Talent
o Ki Weapon
+ Greater Ki Weapon
+ Deep Impact
o Speed Of Thought
+ Ki Charge
o Up The Walls
o Wounding Attack

[deuxhero]

"core, psionics handbook and eberron material is fine"

Monk 2/Psy war 18 with the Talshatora (Or whatever the feat was) feat.

[Eldariel]

Yup - but he wants to do it with the actual monk class. There in lies the trouble. That, and us playing halflings. His choice sets limits I cannot easily defeat myself. Of course, if this board also cannot, I can safely assume the problem cannot be solved.

I'd settle for a feat or class feature that allowed him to trip/grapple/knockdown/bullrush as if one size category larger + a weapon, enchantment or similar that gave an additional bonus. So that he'd be at least par with a random human city guard.

On top of that, something to boost damage would be nice. And possibly a good mobility trick - like up the walls (the psionic feat) only I kinda doubt he wants to mess with psionics.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Could a psiwarrior be the real solution for him? Hmf - I just know he hates managing details - like psp and stuff.

Difficult.

Monk/Psi Warrior is really the only way with the sources given he's going to be good at what he wants to be good at. That's really it; as a small Monk, his Grapple, even with Improved Grapple, is going to be worse than average medium Fighter's (let alone Barbarian's) and Tripping is even worse since the very power of the ability is that there are very few sources of bonus to it so a focused character can beat just about anything.

He has generic -5 stamped on him from Small + Str-penalty, which means even with Improved Trip he isn't as good as a featless Fighter. Really, Swordsage would do precisely what he wants - Setting Sun has the whole "size matters not"-theme going on for it and you can use Dexterity for those and such. It'd also give him a lot of variety and such. But as ToB isn't available, well, meh. Also, if you had access to Forgotten Realms-sources, you could use Jotunbrud regional feat and just handwave the qualification. That lets him count as Medium for combat maneuvers; still worse than your average Fighter, but at least not quite as bad.


It's worth remembering that Grapple isn't really a Monk's strong point due to medium BAB. Tripping is better, except the lack of reach weapon proficiencies and the ability to flurry with them kinda sucks.

You could use a homebrew version of Monk like Pathfinder or Tome or one of the billion fixes online; almost universally they give the Monk some way to use combat maneuvers at full BAB. That would make him slightly better...except he's still small. Size Matters Not from Races of the Wild-substitution helps bit with Grapple, except:
- He's still medium BAB
- He cannot initiate Grapple against opponents against which the bonus works
- It merely makes up for one size category; he's still behind on raw Grapple-check against average opponent of size it works against

So...yeah. It's...meh.


Really, the options I see are:
- Monk 2/Psychic Warrior -> with Tashalatora; he may not like PPs and such, but this is by far closest to what he wants with the sources he has.
- Unarmed Swordsage; this is out of the book (well, let him use Throw-maneuvers against opponents of any size, rationalized as using their power and momentum against them, which is precisely what Setting Sun is about) precisely what he wants...but if nobody there has Tome of Battle, there's little chance of that.
- Get some homebrew Monk-fix. Probably most accessible option if you can't acquire ToB and he isn't open to Psychic Warrior-based unarmed brawler-build. Might as well homebrew/off-source some feats (like Jotunbrud) to help him too.

[Divide by Zero]

Yup - but he wants to do it with the actual monk class.

Did you point out to him that "class" is just a predefined set of abilities, and has no in-game meaning?

[Prime32]

Did you point out to him that "class" is just a predefined set of abilities, and has no in-game meaning?

This. A class is not a job. It does not define you. Just look at Miko.

Bob having fighter levels just means he's good at fighting, not that he's "Bob the fighter".


If that doesn't work, lie to him as said above.

[Runeclaw]

The lack of reach weapon proficiencies and the ability to flurry with them kinda sucks.

Pole Fighting [DR331] or Serpent Strike [Eb] can help with this, except you might need to dip Fighter for the weapon prof. Would let you flurry with reach weapons, though.

[Doc Roc]

Would you accept an offering of a peer-reviewed and heavily tested monk class alternative?

If not, I offer my extremely considerable optimization kung-fu, but do second the tashalatoran suggestion. I prefer Ardent over Psy Warrior, but it sounds like you might not have access to ardent.