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Thread: Is this Overpowered?
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2010-04-17, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Is this Overpowered?
So one of the players in my current group, a Tome of Fiends warlock (some kind of homebrew) is considering getting a feat that somehow lets him get Greater Teleport at will at sixth level, but is limited to him and fifty pounds of equipment.
I realize it's the DM's call, but the player and I have been back and forth about this and I've come to realize that I don't have the familarity with Greater Teleport necessary to determine if it's overpowered, purely for the development of my own opinion (to clarify I am not the DM). Thus, I come to you, the Playground, and ask your opinion.Last edited by Trekkin; 2010-04-17 at 12:44 AM.
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2010-04-17, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Technically, Tome of Fiends is balanced. It's just that it's balanced internally, and against very high optimization wizards. If the rest of the players aren't on the same level/using material from the other Tomes, then it's going to be ridiculously overpowered.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2010-04-17, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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- A place with no pants
Re: Is this Overpowered?
The ability to teleport any place in a plane with no chance of error at level six? No, I don't see how that could be an issue at all
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2010-04-17, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
I'm probably no more familiar than you with this but I would not allow it. There is a feat in Complete Mage that gives you Teleport, Summon Monster V, and Unholy Blight each 1/day. It's a heritage feat. It's available at level 9. You could offer that as a compromise.
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2010-04-17, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
I should mention that the rest of the party includes:
1. A bard
2. A rogue/wizard who's new at this
3. Me, the shaper, aided by my guilt at figuring out little snaps of TO that let me steal the spotlight rather more than I should. I'm working on it, but I'm doubling as our battlefield controller and our fighter (astral construct)Last edited by Trekkin; 2010-04-17 at 12:40 AM.
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2010-04-17, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Can you give us the name and source of the feat? Perhaps there are limits on it, or something that he's missing.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2010-04-17, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Hi, I'm pretty sure I'm the player the OP is talking about
For reference, he is a fine sized warforged scout with ... 30 INT, I think
The Bard has a similar charisma (regularly rolls over 40 on diplomacy)
The Rogue, I do feel kinda bad for, but he's not one of the ones complaining
My stats are human with 32 point buy
Also, consider: this is equivalent to one of the abilities on the CR 2 Lantern archon.
EDIT: for reference, here is where the feat is posted
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=288...685c7fad#28831Last edited by RadiantPhoenix; 2010-04-17 at 12:43 AM. Reason: adding link
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2010-04-17, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
I can only assume that as this is written, you're the GM of the game. At which point I want you to consider something, its your job to help the players travel the world and accomplish thier goals, and provide them with decent enough challenge so that when they succeed they can actually feel the excitement. With that said, I agree with Tavar, if the other player's arent optimized then it will be overpowered, but its not like theres not means of countering such powers.
This teleport will effect how the group operates as much as how he operates. If you're still unsure on how to handle this, then consider reaching a middle ground, oppose a restriction on the power that you feel limits the power to the groups level, but still gives him the option for the travel.
Also, keep in mind, having a group member with greater teleport is quite useful to you as the party can send him with his bag of holding to sell their goods and pickup much needed supplies whenever, thus you no longer need to provide cities/towns to vender stuff in. This allows you to emerse your players even deeper into the story without nerfing their ability to continue to fight. I for one would limit its use in combat, but thats just me.Sanity is an illusion I wear.
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2010-04-17, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Yeah, RadiantPhoenix is as he says. How do I close a thread? It's hardly objective now.
Last edited by Trekkin; 2010-04-17 at 03:34 PM.
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2010-04-17, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Last edited by Tavar; 2010-04-17 at 12:49 AM.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2010-04-17, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Google comes up with several wiki pages for 'Tome of Fiends' and the feat in question appears to be called Greater Teleport. Apparently, any Outsider PC can take that feat at 6th level and Greater Teleport at will. Considering that every Outsider PC would take this feat, and many PCs would find a way to become an Outsider in order to take this feat, I would say that yes it is definitely overpowered.
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2010-04-17, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Uh... yeah, how exactly are you an Outsider, again? As a human, you distinctly lack the type.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-04-17, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
To explain, his class allows him to qualify as a fiend.
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2010-04-17, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Regarding outsider requirement: The class qualifies for feats as a fiend starting at level 2. Given that 'Fiend' is defined in 3.5 D&D as 'exemplar of an evil alignment' and exemplar is defined as 'outsider with an alignment subtype' I'm pretty sure I qualify
Also, you're right, CR is probably not the best measurement. A lantern archon is considered ECL 5 by the book of exalted deeds. That is where they got the 5th level requirement from, I believe.
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2010-04-17, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: Is this Overpowered?
It's Frank&K's material. It's balanced if the DM is comfortable with Rocket Tag games or with Tier 2 classes.
Generally speaking, you're no more powerful than a moderately optimized Sorcerer when using Tome material. However, it doesn't have the same weaknesses as the Tier 2 classes do (AKA: abilities that no one should ever use). Only a handful of people who aren't personally familiar with Frank&K or the forum he frequents are going to be comfortable with his work.
Even I take some issue with some Tome material (Wish Economy, for example).
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2010-04-17, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
So far we haven't even entered the 'gold economy' so I don't think we're getting into the wish economy until and unless we start it ourselves.
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2010-04-17, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
Re: Is this Overpowered?
I am not aware of Exemplar being defined in any WotC D&D product, so we'll have to go with the English definition:
ex·em·plar
–noun
1. a model or pattern to be copied or imitated: Washington is the exemplar of patriotic virtue.
2. a typical example or instance.
3. an original or archetype: Plato thought nature but a copy of ideal exemplars.
4. a copy of a book or text.
"Outsider creature type" is not included in "model of evil by which others may follow"
Qualifying for things as though you were a fiend does not change your creature type, and it is possible to be a fiend without being an outsider (Example: Blood Fiend, Fiend Folio). Being treated as though you were a fiend does not automatically make you treated as though you were an outsider, at best it treats you as though you had the [evil] subtype and nothing more.
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2010-04-17, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
I think exemplar comes from planescape...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignme...%26_Dragons%29
refers specifically to this
EDIT: After much research, I have discovered that the term exemplar is fan-made, which means that my previous statement on the definition of 'Fiend' was improperly phrased from the perspective of strict adherence to the rules. I will need to do more research.Last edited by RadiantPhoenix; 2010-04-17 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Term is incorrect
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2010-04-17, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
In 3.5 game terminology, there is no meaning to the word "exemplar" beyond what it means as an english word. Using it as justification for having the Outsider type or counting as an Outsider is... sketchy, at best. Now, if one assumes your DM isn't arguing the point (though, were I your DM, I would have a long conversation about wording with you), then it still is my opinion that Greater Teleport at will at ECL 5 is very very powerful, likely too powerful, unless everyone has similar power levels, though, it seems unlikely.
Btw, the word exemplar appears only twice in that wiki link. Neither time was relevant, game-wise.Last edited by arguskos; 2010-04-17 at 01:28 AM.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-04-17, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
Honestly? I'd almost rather have Flee The Scene, which any Warlock can get at level 6.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
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2010-04-17, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
Greater Teleport [Monstrous]
The extraplanar blood running through your veins allows you to use the signature travel methods of the outer planes.
Prerequisite: Outsider, character level 5+
Benefit: You may use greater teleport at will as a spell-like ability. You may only transport yourself and 50 pounds of carried items.
too bad it isnt wizard material, because otherwise I would so role up a thiefling right about now.
but yeah, nerf it for combat at least if you actually plan to use it.
acolyte of the skin might qualify for it, though I havent checked that one out for a while so im not sure. Though wearing the skin of a fiend sorta implies it more then the whole examplar thing.
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2010-04-17, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
It's from the Tome of Fiends, which is NOT meant to be used with normal D&D. Use all of Frank & K's work or none of it, unless your group has a very high optimization level. If you allow it, you should also encourage the rogue to use the Tome Assassin or something similar.
I'm not seeing the logic here. Why would you want flee the scene when you can do exactly what it does with greater teleport, minus the image. AND you get to go anywhere in the universe instantly.Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-04-17 at 09:55 AM.
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2010-04-17, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
As much as I liked the Tomes, if you use the tomes, you have to use ALL the tomes. The problem is that the tomes were never finished by F&K and the community material lacks the same degree of quality control. In fact, ever since K left, the project's taken a down-turn.
I hate to advocate my own material, but I think you might consider using Legend instead. :SLagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
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2010-04-17, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this Overpowered?
In combat, it's no more powerful than any of the lower-level teleportation effects (Knight's Move, Benign/Hostile Translocation to swap places, Anklets of Translocation, certainly Abrupt Jaunt.) It's still eating your standard action to make a move and you don't suffer destination-miss chances with any of the combat spells.
Out of combat is a bit stickier; right now, it's not likely to really hurt much, because the 50 pound limit prevents the character from bringing the rest of the party with him. The Warlock alone can get pretty much anywhere, but unless he's really that far above the level the GM is designing for, he shouldn't be able to accomplish major goals alone. It's most likely to be used to send the Warlock off on scouting or shopping trips (the party now has access to pretty much any mundane item within a minute of realizing they need it,) which are generally not game-breaking activities. The ability could be used to transport the whole party within a Portable Hole, but by the time they can readily afford one of those travel has stopped being a thing they should be concerned about- they'll have scrying and normal Teleport to get them places anyway, as well as Phantom Steeds, Wind Walk, and other ways to cover ground much faster than a man on foot could possibly go.
If the rest of the party isn't up to the Tome mark, however, and it sounds like they aren't, I'd rewrite the feat to tone it down a bit. Maybe something like
Character level 5+: Gain the ability to use Dimension Door, spell-like, limit you+50 pounds carried goods.
Level 10+: May choose to use Teleport instead
15+: May use Greater Teleport.
Retains the purpose and utility of the feat without granting the character abilities a normal Wizard wouldn't have access to for another 7-plus levels.
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2010-04-17, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Tome Assassin will help our Rogue so much; he's wanted to get into spellcasting anyway. I will show it to him and see if he wants to ask the DM about retraining.
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2010-04-17, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
If your worried about in combat, make it a full round to use. That still lets the warlock escape, while making it so that he can't just abuse it constantly, though a smart warlock might teleport a mile up and drop dozens of alchemist's fire. Plenty of time for another full round teleport after that.
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2010-04-17, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Is this Overpowered?
Level 6 character + a bag of holding = perfect and limitless travel for the entire party.
Now, I am in favour of powerful characters, but that's a challenge for a DM at level 6.
In combat, its nice too, as you can position yourself anywhere, and as a scout, you'll take huge advantage of this in conjunction with skirmish.
That said, your character doesn't qualify by RAW anyway, so its not a huge issue really.
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2010-04-17, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Is this Overpowered?
First, there are some wording issues. Greater Teleport does technically imply that it's the spell, but it's the outsider ability, so that needs to be understood. What he'd be getting is this:
Originally Posted by SRD
Originally Posted by Spherelock
The person that would be getting the feat is a Homebrewed Warlock variant.
As the warlock's player as said elsewhere, the game events in the past that GT would trivialize were already trivialized by the flying tiny size psion. These events were a rockslide and clearly visible pendulums. The psion, quite obviously, was able to fly over and walk under the threats with no difficulty.
There's also this question: Is a level 6 psion of tiny size (about the size of an original xbox controller), with 30 Int, and most construct immunities overpowered? Regardless of whether you think this is overpowered, or perfectly fine, it's likely no more powerful than a sixth level character with the outsider version of Greater Teleport.
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2010-04-17, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
"Most" is an overstatement, but yes, it's getting irksome being so small that I can effectively slip through the cracks in the two challenges he admitted to GT trivializing. I try not to overuse it though. In fact, I'm no longer playing that character. Or any, in this game.
Incidentally, this is a campaign in which travel time is a major limitation. As long as we're getting campaign-specific, we've spent the past two game sessions operating under a frightful time limit to heal the rogue, most of which was eaten up in travel.
But all this is incidental to the central question, which I had intended to present outside of the setting before RadiantPhoenix showed up and eliminated the possibility: is the feat presented an overpowered feat?Last edited by Trekkin; 2010-04-17 at 03:39 PM.
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2010-04-17, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: Is this Overpowered?
No the feat presented is not overpowered, if you are playing with you know, anything approaching optimized play. So like, 26 Int Medium sized Warforged Psions would be about as powerful as this.
In the context of the campaign, it's even more not overpowered then it is generally.
Of course, you should probably keep in mind that the feat was made under dungeonomicon assumptions. Which include that all teleports (including Wizard ones) are not capable of teleporting through more than 40ft of solid earth/stone/ect.
It certainly limits the in combat applications in many situations, and prevents super infiltration of dungeons.Last edited by Penitent; 2010-04-17 at 04:02 PM.