How is Eugene Greenhilt Lawful Good?

[RMcMurtry]

This may have been answered somewhere else, and if so, I apologize, but it's been driving me nuts. Eugene lacks the discipline to stick with a project. He's primarily concerned about himself. He hijacks LG divine messengers and messages. He lies without a second thought. The only vow he made that seems to mean anything to him is the one someone's enforcing. He thinks nothing of plopping the whole problem of Xykon on his teenage (or younger!) daughter. How does he qualify as LG?

[Ancalagon]

That is an interesting question and the answer I give myself to that is: He is not. To me, he is not Lawful and surely not Good. We *could* argue about Lawful but not about Good, he's just a self-centered jerk who cares about nothing but himself and his work. To me, that seems fairly Neutral.

So, what does he do in the cloud up there and why does everyone say he's LG?
I think he, as mortal, might have been Lawful Good.

We cannot know but we must assume he was. He did his fair share of adventuring so he might have done a lot of good deeds for the right reasons. But apart from that, we simply cannot know but we must assume that he, as mortal, has been much more lawful and much more good than he is now.

From all we did see so far we simply cannot put him in that folder anymore. I'd rather stick him in the true neutral bin (as he's also close to chaos in some regards).

[Starscream]

I just assumed that years of sitting in heaven's waiting room is what made him such a grouch. We do know that he was a bit of a workaholic when he was alive, didn't spend enough time with his kids, and disapproved of his son's choice to be a fighter, but pretty all the bitterness and manipulativeness we've seen happened after he died.

In SoD we even see him tell Right-Eye that he doesn't want revenge on Xykon anymore because he has a family now, and that's more important to him. And even his wife defends him when Roy badmouths him too much. Seems like he wasn't always the self-centered jerk he is today.

[Zxo]

He might be Good. Good =/= nice. Miko was totally unpleasant, but still (before falling) Good. I didn't see Eugene doing anything Evil (including in the two prequels) and if he's in the waiting room of a Good afterlife, I can accept that he's Good and did a lot of good things off screen.

But Lawful... no way. I mean, even the way he took the oath:

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He got drunk and went to an oath shop to get the oath (the same way you get a silly tatoo on impulse) and had even problems remembering in the morning what happened.

If that's not Chaotic, I don't know what is.

It is possible that he's in the waiting room of the LG afterlife because he hasn't been judged by a deva yet - the deva who judges Roy said that she had the power to "throw him in the True Neutral bin", if his record shows that this is his true alignment. Maybe people go to an afterlife according to what they think their alignment is, and the devas verify it and send them elsewhere if they've been deluded.

[Ancalagon]

but pretty all the bitterness and manipulativeness we've seen happened after he died.

No, SoD has a few scenes of him being bitter, grumpy, and alive. Remember lieing about the football game of his son? Does not really scream "lawful". And lieing to your kids because you were hanging out in a tavern is ALSO not good!

In SoD we even see him tell Right-Eye that he doesn't want revenge on Xykon anymore because he has a family now, and that's more important to him.

That would be lawful if it was meant that way. But I always found it to be a "lame excuse". I always thought that was on the same level as "I could not watch your football game because, hum, I... had work on the elemental plane of water".

And even his wife defends him when Roy badmouths him too much. Seems like he wasn't always the self-centered jerk he is today.

Well, his wife a) was once in love with him and b) said she had a good time in the time Eugene wanted to make her happy. He was the same self-centered jerk back then but he wanted to get that woman and wanted to spend time with her - of course SHE has good memories about that.
It's not changing the fact Eugene was jerk back then as well (and maybe his wife had fond memories of a time with him - but that does not mean that the very same time also created fond memories in his kids!)

I'm not convinced.

[JoseB]

I think that Zxo has a point, though: It seems plausible that you first show up at the "antechamber" of the afterlife you *yourself* think you're due for, and only after the full review you get assigned to wherever it is that you should go.

It may well be that Eugene's review was halted as soon as the subject of the Oath came up: No sense in doing Eugene's full review if he was not going to be able to move on, after all. It may well be that, had Eugene's review gone on completely, he might have ended up tossed somewhere else (I don't have the relevant book at hand; I know that this review takes place in -I think- SoD, but I don't remember exactly how it went).

Or it may be that Eugene's review was just some kind of rough initial screening, which would be deepened later on, and that got stopped because of the unfulfilled oath.

And it may be that his jerkass actions while alive, jerkassical as they were, did not affect the "core" of LG-ness he might have had. And that sitting on the cloud for so long has made him (even more) bitter and upset, thus moving him away from that LG "core" he might have kept.

I guess that what I want to say is that I don't really know

[factotum]

Roy himself said in On the Origin of PCs that Eugene is "nothing if not Lawful". In addition, it's not like Eugene flips from one project to another every few days--he spends YEARS following up on each of his projects; the fact he gets bored before he reaches the end isn't a particularly Chaotic point, IMHO. (I have the same problem myself, yet I much prefer a nice, ordered life to one of chaos and flipping from one thing to the next).

[hamishspence]

Roy himself said in On the Origin of PCs that Eugene is "nothing if not Lawful".

Roy's understanding of his Dad may be a bit limited. His next comment was "and would never lie".

Which is an error on Roy's part.

[Saph]

I'm fairly sure that the Giant specifically said in a post on these forums that Eugene Greenhilt was Lawful Neutral.

[Optimystik]

He may have been LG in life. But his alignment has surely changed on that cloud.

The question is, can your alignment change after death, and still impact your afterlife? Time will tell. One thing I can be sure of - being sent to another afterlife will allow him to finally keep a promise to Roy.

[Snake-Aes]

Roy himself said in On the Origin of PCs that Eugene is "nothing if not Lawful". In addition, it's not like Eugene flips from one project to another every few days--he spends YEARS following up on each of his projects; the fact he gets bored before he reaches the end isn't a particularly Chaotic point, IMHO. (I have the same problem myself, yet I much prefer a nice, ordered life to one of chaos and flipping from one thing to the next).

Yeah, people are not noticing that he does stick with a project and is fully centered on it for a long while before even giving up. Lawful doesn't mean "say something and do something till the world stops being", for Lamashtu's sake!

[megabyter5]

I just thought of some fridge logic. IIRC, OoPCs did show the game Roy was playing, making it obvious which one it was, but did not give it a name. Considering that the game in question has a different name depending on where you are in the world, that seems like a clever trick by the Giant. Speaking of games, make a will save.

[Kish]

I'm fairly sure that the Giant specifically said in a post on these forums that Eugene Greenhilt was Lawful Neutral.

Pretty sure that's Telephone Game.

[Optimystik]

Yeah, people are not noticing that he does stick with a project and is fully centered on it for a long while before even giving up. Lawful doesn't mean "say something and do something till the world stops being", for Lamashtu's sake!

No, but it does mean "keep your oaths." It's right there in the PHB.

Lawful characters don't (or shouldn't) make oaths rashly, because they then feel obligated to uphold them, even to personal detriment. As the deva rightly pointed out, however, Eugene just... stopped.

[Ancalagon]

Until further explanation (in the comic or by Word of God) I will consider that Eugene's assumed alignment is either (in comic) wrong or a flaw in the story.

I think that Eugene was borderline LG when he was alive (it might be there are many, many things we simply do not know but given what we DO know he was not very lawful) and clearly not LG based on what we saw of him in the comic.

Destroying evidence about evil that was given to you by the literal forces of good because passing it on would hinder your personal goal is also not neutral anymore! I'm not saying he's evil due to that (far from it!) but the act itself is so far towards evil on the scale that we surely can argue if it still was neutral!
And there are other cases of "borderline neutral" he did during he got introduced.

After all those "debatable" things... If I can state one thing for sure, then I say that he did not behaved lawful at all in the afterlife. He does not accept what is his "fair" consequence with the oath, he does not see his abandoning the oath has led him where he is, he ties celestials to take their place in a trial, he cheats, lies, tricks, works behind paladins, still disregards his son...

[derfenrirwolv]

I think he's going to be in for some post mortem judgement for a few of his actions when Roy finally offs Xykon.

[Querzis]

I dont get how hes supposed to be anything else then Lawful. Sure he stopped trying to do the oath...after years of trying to fullfill this damn oath and after having a family. And I really dont see how being a manipulative bastard make him less lawful. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned he was good when he was alive but, you know, years of being stranded on a damn cloud without being able to enter paradise tend to really anger people.

[Shale]

Yeah, do we have any evidence that he was ever actually judged? The OotS afterlife is where you're told whether or not you lived up to your stated alignment, so if he hasn't had his turn in the chair yet, he could be CE but still get to hang around on that cloud.

[Ancalagon]

as far as I'm concerned he was good when he was alive but, you know, years of being stranded on a damn cloud without being able to enter paradise tend to really anger people.

The reasons he might have for not being lawful (anymore?) are not important here. It is all about the question if he IS or if he IS NOT. And I think that people who say he does not really seem lawful (or even good) domake a valid argument.

@Shale
We have not. All we know is that he got told he is not let in and can call his oldest child now. If that was before or after the judgement process is unclear (yet it's likely it was after as it was the same process Roy had to go through).

[Premier]

I think it's quite obvious: OOTS is a comic strip which regularly makes fun the game and how people are playing it. One such jab - showcased with Greenhilt sr. - is about how people just pick an alignment at character creation then never ever think about it.

Another regular theme is players / PCs exploiting and misusing various spells (V.'s two uses of Suggestion, Durkon damaging treants with a thunderclap, etc.) There are plenty others.

[Teddy]

@Shale
We have not. All we know is that he got told he is not let in and can call his oldest child now. If that was before or after the judgement process is unclear (yet it's likely it was after as it was the same process Roy had to go through).

Well, he asked if he was "good here", probably refering to the Celestial Realm, and the deva answers him that he's got a few black spots, but nothing serious.

[Shale]

(yet it's likely it was after as it was the same process Roy had to go through).

The thing is, Roy isn't being held back by the oath. As long as you try to fulfill it, you're cleared for your final reward - whatever that is. Eugene has to wait until Xykon is destroyed, and we don't know if he was actually pre-judged or just told to cool his heels. I'm probably reading waaaaaaaaay too much into this, but the deva never told him that he was getting into Celestia, just that he would be able to leave the cloud.

[Ancalagon]

The thing is, Roy isn't being held back by the oath. As long as you try to fulfill it, you're cleared for your final reward - whatever that is. Eugene has to wait until Xykon is destroyed, and we don't know if he was actually pre-judged or just told to cool his heels. I'm probably reading waaaaaaaaay too much into this, but the deva never told him that he was getting into Celestia, just that he would be able to leave the cloud.

No need to explain me that. You asked if we knew if he was already judged. I answered we cannot know, but that it is likely his phone call was at the end of the judging process.

[Shale]

Where's that phone call? I don't remember it.

[Teddy]

Where's that phone call? I don't remember it.

At the end of SoD (although we don't get to see the phone call, just see him trying to call Julia and fail).

[Shale]

*Checks* Ooooh, there it is. Yeah, he was judged. But the deva also didn't even notice the Blood Oath until that moment, one way or the other, soooooo...hm.

[Ancalagon]

Where's that phone call? I don't remember it.

It's right here:

Yeah, do we have any evidence that he was ever actually judged?

Ah, edit, sorry. Misunderstood. At the end of SoD, I think.

[lord_khaine]

The reasons he might have for not being lawful (anymore?) are not important here. It is all about the question if he IS or if he IS NOT. And I think that people who say he does not really seem lawful (or even good) domake a valid argument.

I on the other hand seriously disagree on that analysis, Eugene might be a bitter old man, but that has nothing to do with his aligment, Good doesnt nececarely = nice.

Quote:
In SoD we even see him tell Right-Eye that he doesn't want revenge on Xykon anymore because he has a family now, and that's more important to him.
That would be lawful if it was meant that way. But I always found it to be a "lame excuse". I always thought that was on the same level as "I could not watch your football game because, hum, I... had work on the elemental plane of water".

This really looks a lot like personal dislike clouding observations, its proberly the most good act we see Eugene do, abandoning past thoughts of revence for the sake of his family, and at the same time giving Right-eye a very good piece of advice, and so it does annoy me a bit when people just brush it off because it doesnt support their theori regarding Eugene's aligment.

[Jagos]

I believe in Eugene's sake, that little bit of good is far outweighed by his negative traits. His selfishness, his egotism towards Roy in particular, and the accident that killed his second born are just a few of the things that don't make him as nice as he could have been for the grand jury in the heavens.

[Ancalagon]

I on the other hand seriously disagree on that analysis, Eugene might be a bitter old man, but that has nothing to do with his aligment, Good doesnt nececarely = nice.

Then address the other issues mentioned. And as I said, him not being good can be argued, him not being lawful... is a much stronger case.