OOTS #716 - The Discussion Thread

[TheCoolThatguy]

Umm, why does everyone think that Haley nailed down the Wanted poster with Nale's face on it?

The Lizard guy clearly states that Haley cost him a *teleport* scroll. That's how the others are going to find them.

[DSCrankshaw]

Uh. Haley will be equally helpless. So now we'll help a disabled Haley, paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan alone and imprisoned in a strange country.

Wouldn't it be much smarter for Haley to stay safe? The rescuers might need all the help they can get.

A rogue's only helpless when she's unconscious. It is very difficult to keep a rogue from escaping. It's a calculated risk, but worthwhile, especially when you consider that she needed to get hold of the bounty poster, because she did not know where they were going.

EDIT:

Umm, why does everyone think that Haley nailed down the Wanted poster with Nale's face on it?

The Lizard guy clearly states that Haley cost him a *teleport* scroll. That's how the others are going to find them.

The teleport scroll disappeared when it fizzled. V cost him the teleport scroll--the "You... cost me a teleport scroll" is addressed to the elf wizard, not Haley. We can clearly see that the remaining scroll has the frame for Nale's picture in it in panel 2.

And a teleport scroll does not specify location--retrieving it would not have helped the Order. And if it had not been used up, then Gannji could have simply retrieved it.

[Shale]

The teleport scroll vanished when the spell fizzled. It's in the lizardman's left hand (stage right), and disappears when V casts Power Word Stun. The wanted poster - you can see the layout of it, including the big picture of Nale - is in his right hand, and still there until Haley knocks it away.

[kusje]

People are making a fuss about Haley not knowing what was on the paper. I'd just like to point out that it doesn't matter what was on the paper. Vaarsuvius said to deliver it to Greenhilt, so that's what Haley did her best to do. She trusts V, remember?

Yes, but our point is that she didn't need to get caught to do so.

[Shale]

She never said she HAD to get caught. She wanted to go with them. Completely separate decision.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Yep, Roy's a smart boy. Now I hope he's smart enough.

[Yendor]

The teleport scroll vanished when the spell fizzled. It's in the lizardman's left hand (stage right), and disappears when V casts Power Word Stun. The wanted poster - you can see the layout of it, including the big picture of Nale - is in his right hand, and still there until Haley knocks it away.

You can even make out the word "WANTED" on it.

[Zorn]

Wait, how could Haley have known about the poster? From the looks of things in the previous strip, she'd be too far away to read it or perhaps even overhear their conversation. I suppose if she did hear it would be reasonable for her to assume whatever's on it is worth "showing" to Roy, but that's quite the gamble. Vaarsuvius couldn't have given her any clues as to it's importance (pointing with her eyes maybe?) either; s/he didn't know what Haley was planning on doing.

Rogues are known for having quite developed spot and listen skills, so its acually very likely she heard then and saw the poster. Then thought of a quick plan to both protect V and Elan, and warn roy. Ether that, or she knew she had to go with them, so she tried to get herself captured, and upon hearing V say "Deliver to Greenhilt" Saw an opportunity to warn Roy. Also, add the fact that Elan, her love, is being taken away again, after being seperated for months. If I were to "play" Haley, I would have done the same thing.

Not to mention i think the spell "Message" is a level 0 or 1 spell, Its possible that V and Haley could have already been talking and Rich just didnt show it.

That's a good point. This is a comic based in a fantasy setting. It's also based on DnD which is a system that has PCs performing superhuman feats (in this case above average listen and possibly spot checks) almost on a constant basis. In that sense, I suppose it isn't surprising at all that she knew what they had said, what was on that poster, and the thread count of Gannji's bandanna.

On the other hand, while she has certainly leveled up a few times and the following strip was mostly done as a joke, Haley has been known to fail spot/listen checks.

I think she of all people would know how wanted posters look like.

Very true.

Edit: Since I seem to have garnered a few responses, I do want to make it clear that my original comment was less of a criticism than it may have appeared.

[frogman55]

Just wanted to tune in and say that the fast rate of new comics lately is truly awesome. It reminds me of old days when I first got hooked.

[chionophile]

Yes, but our point is that she didn't need to get caught to do so.

Maybe not your point, but a number of posters were arguing over it (Zorn and Nevadie, for starters).

[Solara]

I have a feeling that, per the rules of humor and irony, Roy will not immediately figure it out.

Haha yes, 'oh sh--! We just missed a fight with the Linear Guild!'

Or even better, 'OMG Haley's gone back to her greedy rogue roots and turned Elan in for the bounty!'

...no seriously though, I'm having a hard time thinking of realistic misunderstanding-fueled hijinks.

[Sijo]

Wow, the strips ARE coming out faster lately! I guess that's another advantage of focusing a little more on the action than the humor.

This is the first time I see the old Power Word: Stun spell used ANYWHERE and I was a little disappointed. From what I remember, it was supposed to incapacitate even high-level monsters, for quite a while. Of course that was back in First Edition AD&D, and this strip is free to interpret it anyway, but still, bummer.

I must side with "getting captured is a stupid idea" (she doesn't KNOW she can help them, she would've been more useful helping Roy track them down) but as V said (earlier) the emotional responses are not always the best. (But they make for good stories.)

And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

[DSCrankshaw]

And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

Where else would he go? The bad guys just used teleport to go collect their bounty, so that's where they are. Anyway, since we don't know what city they're in now, we really don't know how far away they are, and I figure that with Wind Walk they can get there in a few days anyway.

The poster's really the only clue as to where V and Elan will be, whether or not Haley was captured. There's no way she, or anyone else in the Order, could track them without it.

[Shale]

Assuming Roy finds it (and it's attached to Haley's dagger, in the place where they were supposed to meet, so he'll know who it's from if he sees it), it's not exactly a brain teaser. "Hey, the guy who looks EXACTLY LIKE one of our missing party members is a wanted man in the Empire of Blood, and so are two other people who could be mistaken for the other two missing party members. And they wanted us to know this. Where could they be?"

[AxeD]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.
BTW, I still think that its rubbish that Enor managed to grapple Haley while carrying 2 medium sized creatures. Anyone know how the hell he could have managed that?
On another note, damn! I guess V rolled a 1 on that spell, Gannji sure wasn't stunned for more than a round, at my estimate.

[Shale]

The only thing in his hands was a piece of paper, which might have been hooked by a claw.

Edit: Also, Haley wanted to be captured. She'd deliberately fail that grapple check.

[Herald Alberich]

I was wondering how the Power Word spells would look. 306 established that Power Words are indeed only one word, but the normal way of vocalizing spells would make them three words each. Good solution.

So, where do we go from here? Do we stay with the poster and watch Roy figure out what happened, or do we go with V, Haley, and Elan? I think it's more likely to be the latter, the better for Roy and company to come crashing in to the scene at a dramatically appropriate moment, several strips down the line.

And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

We have no idea where on the continent they are, how far away the EoB is, and heck, they could be in the country already. The Teleport could have taken the bounty hunters across the continent or across the city. Anyway, if they're not already in Bleedingham, Wind Walk will get them there soon enough.

[Kewpa]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.
BTW, I still think that its rubbish that Enor managed to grapple Haley while carrying 2 medium sized creatures. Anyone know how the hell he could have managed that?
On another note, damn! I guess V rolled a 1 on that spell, Gannji sure wasn't stunned for more than a round, at my estimate.

Looks like our favorite heroes are having a very bad run of luck.

[slayerx]

We have no idea where on the continent they are, how far away the EoB is, and heck, they could be in the country already. The Teleport could have taken the bounty hunters across the continent or across the city. Anyway, if they're not already in Bleedingham, Wind Walk will get them there soon enough.

Actually i think i may be safe to say that they are not in the Empire of Blood, and that it is possible they are close by
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

i assume the large dots on the map are the largest cities, the ones they were planning on checking... based on what Haley said the first place they are likely to go to is Dictoria... assuming what we saw was their first attempt to search the city, that places them several countires away from the empire of blood... and they were planning to windwalk between cities and countries anyway; it's practically on there way to the next city

Though i am making quite a few assumptions

[Herald Alberich]

Actually i think i may be safe to say that they are not in the Empire of Blood, and that it is possible they are close by
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

i assume the large dots on the map are the largest cities, the ones they were planning on checking... and if the red star is where they thought the gate was then that would mean they would likely go to Dictoria first and start their search there... that places them several countires away from the empire of blood... and they were planning to windwalk between cities and countries anyway; it's practically on there way to the next city

Though i am making quite a few assumptions

Only one assumption is problematic: that they're still in the first city. We don't know how many cities they've checked so far. They could be anywhere.

[Locnil]

I forgot, but is it stated anywhere what enchantments that dagger has?

[Yendor]

I forgot, but is it stated anywhere what enchantments that dagger has?

It's a +4 dagger.

[Haggis]

I noticed a few people wondering how Roy would find the poster/ worried bout Haily losing her bow and knife. My quess is Belkar.

He has the nose (and height) of a bloodhound. She's one of few people he almost cares about, and he pretending to be a useful party member. I can't see how he won't recover them for her or find the poster.

[carabaldo]

Separated again.
AARGH

[derfenrirwolv]

Edit: Also, Haley wanted to be captured. She'd deliberately fail that grapple check.

She can use escape artist to ESCAPE a grapple but not to avoid one. Given big blue appears to be large sized, a fighter type, and have a large strength bonus i think that's the one part of the operation she didn't need to fix.

[Porthos]

There's another thing that people who are complaining about Haley's actions are missing: Namely, she only had 30 seconds or so (at most, possibly much less) to make up her mind over what she was going to do.

She didn't sit down for 10 minutes to go over the plusses and minuses of her plan. She didn't have anyone to talk to sound off her idea. She didn't have time to do much of anything except come up with one plan.

It's all well and good for people to sit back and nitpick a character decision over days, looking at every possible flaw. But that's not the situation Haley was in. She saw an opportunity, and she grabbed it.

So if people insist on comparing this to a Real Life situation (she'll be knocked out! The dagger will be stolen! She couldn't have seen what was on the poster!), then it has to cut both ways.

The only thing that matters right now is: Was this "in character" for Haley? And I think there is ample evidence that this is exactly something that a person like Haley would do, given the situation.

[Zorn]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.

We still have very little evidence that Enor is "stupid." The only thing his falling victim to Vaarsuvius's Suggestion spell shows us is that he probably has a low will save, and he even managed to work around it (by blasting Elan with lightning) without Gannji's help. That he didn't make the distinction between claws and hands doesn't say much either; I don't recall anyone on the forums predicting that would be how he'd escape Suggestion, and we have a lot more time to think about it. What's more, in this latest strip it was him and not Gannji that remembered the poster.

So far Enor hasn't been giving the orders, and his tactics don't seem to require much thought (they don't seem to need it so far; bludgeoning was quite effective against Elan). That hardly makes him stupid, though.

If Haley had managed to kill Gannji, what would have happened? It's likely that she would have still gotten pinned, and, even if she didn't, she wasn't doing much damage to Enor even with her bow. If I were him, my next move would be to kill all three. Sure I may not get all the money, but now I've got no way to transport three people quickly and I'm pretty upset. I may decide to keep Elan alive and simply deliver him, but I can't think of any reason to spare the other two. If Enor is as stupid as you say, it's likely that he'd be even more likely to abandon the plan and avenge his friend.

[Draz74]

Separated again.
AARGH

Meh. They won't be separated for too long this time:

• This time hasn't included nearly so much foreshadowing of a long, dramatic separation.
• Rich will know people don't want another long separation.
• He already used up the book title "Don't Split the Party." He won't make that the main plot of another book.
• Roy (the proactive, motivated guy who keeps the others going) isn't dead this time.
• Each half of the party has at least one primary caster this time.
• Neither half of the party is Cloistered this time. (Even if Haley and Belkar still are, that's only one in each half.)
• Half of the party actually has a way to get around the world quickly (Wind Walk) now.

We still have very little evidence that Enor is "stupid."

Depends what you count as "evidence." We have Gannji's express opinion that Enor is indeed stupid. ("For the record, you'll also be safe if it tells you to sit on your brain.")

[dsavereide]

"Wait, do you have the -- "

Wanted poster? Or ?

[awibs]

so amused by this story arc and how it is developing.